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Old 01-12-2016, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Montreal
836 posts, read 1,254,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
It's somewhat unusual for a city to be dominated by a single industry. For this to happen, the industry must be very large and the management of the city's champions must be very good, and lucky.
And cities like Detroit and Pittsburgh (and Akron) happened to be luckier in that regard than not just Cleveland but also Buffalo, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Cincinnati, etc.?
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Old 01-12-2016, 06:54 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,420,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yofie View Post
And cities like Detroit and Pittsburgh (and Akron) happened to be luckier in that regard than not just Cleveland but also Buffalo, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Cincinnati, etc.?
My point is that there aren't that many large industries. The size of the city also is a factor in the equation. I'm not certain any industry dominated a large city the way the auto industry dominated Detroit, except perhaps the petroleum industry in Houston.

Rockefeller dominated Cleveland for decades, but obviously Cleveland wasn't the best location for an energy Goliath. Rockefeller relocated to NYC because of the greater financial resources there. He remained very loyal to Cleveland, however, and is buried in Cleveland's Lake View Cemetery.

John D. Rockefeller | Cleveland Historical

Forest Hill | Cleveland Historical

What point are you trying to prove???

As the experiences of Detroit and Akron have proved, I doubt that it is "lucky" in the long run to have a city's economy concentrated on a single industry. Again, I don't believe the steel industry was as dominant in 20th century Pittsburgh as you seem to believe, even though U.S. Steel was one of the largest corporations in the U.S. for much of that period.

Goodyear and Firestone especially were immense in relation to the size of Akron, but GM and Ford were giants in relation to the size of any city.

http://archive.fortune.com/magazines...ive/full/1960/
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Old 01-12-2016, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Montreal
836 posts, read 1,254,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
My point is that there aren't that many large industries. The size of the city also is a factor in the equation. I'm not certain any industry dominated a large city the way the auto industry dominated Detroit, except perhaps the petroleum industry in Houston.

Rockefeller dominated Cleveland for decades, but obviously Cleveland wasn't the best location for an energy Goliath. Rockefeller relocated to NYC because of the greater financial resources there. He remained very loyal to Cleveland, however, and is buried in Cleveland's Lake View Cemetery.

John D. Rockefeller | Cleveland Historical

Forest Hill | Cleveland Historical

What point are you trying to prove???

As the experiences of Detroit and Akron have proved, I doubt that it is "lucky" in the long run to have a city's economy concentrated on a single industry. Again, I don't believe the steel industry was as dominant in 20th century Pittsburgh as you seem to believe, even though U.S. Steel was one of the largest corporations in the U.S. for much of that period.

Goodyear and Firestone especially were immense in relation to the size of Akron, but GM and Ford were giants in relation to the size of any city.

FORTUNE 500: 1960 Archive Full List 1-100
I just mean "lucky" in the short and maybe medium term for places like Detroit or Akron. And it's absolutely true that Pittsburgh wasn't just about steel by any means (look at, e.g., Alcoa, Westinghouse, Heinz). Seems to me that Pittsburgh was (or has been) almost as industrially diverse as Cleveland, and appreciably more so than Detroit. Even Detroit, though, has had steel mills and other non-auto industries.
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Old 01-12-2016, 05:06 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,420,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yofie View Post
I just mean "lucky" in the short and maybe medium term for places like Detroit or Akron. And it's absolutely true that Pittsburgh wasn't just about steel by any means (look at, e.g., Alcoa, Westinghouse, Heinz). Seems to me that Pittsburgh was (or has been) almost as industrially diverse as Cleveland, and appreciably more so than Detroit. Even Detroit, though, has had steel mills and other non-auto industries.
I tried to find an historical listing of S&P 500 or Fortune 500 corporations by headquarters city, but was unable to do so. Fortune does provide lists by year, but doesn't list the headquarters. I didn't feel like going through it even just for Cleveland corporations, but my impression is that Cleveland had many more of these corporations than Pittsburgh until about 1980-1990.

FORTUNE 500: 1970 Archive Full List 1-100

Just search for Fortune 500 by year if someone else wants to do the research.

Northeast Ohio, including Akron, now has just 7 Fortune 500 companies. Eaton and perhaps others are effectively headquartered In Greater Cleveland, even though Eaton did an inverse tax merger changing its legal nexus to Ireland.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...00_photos.html

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/10/...new-home/?_r=0

Lincoln Electric perhaps fell from the list in 2015 due to the collapse of the oil & gas industry.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=LECO+Key+Statistics

Pittsburgh had 8 Fortune 500 firms in 2014.

http://triblive.com/business/headlin...#axzz3wzwBpV4T

At one point, my memory is that Cleveland had over 25 Fortune 500 companies. There were still 17 in 1995 (see Table 2 below), not including any Akron area companies.

http://www.umass.edu/afroam/downloads/reading08.pdf

Last edited by WRnative; 01-12-2016 at 05:28 PM..
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Old 01-12-2016, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Louisville
5,293 posts, read 6,054,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
As the experiences of Detroit and Akron have proved, I doubt that it is "lucky" in the long run to have a city's economy concentrated on a single industry. Again, I don't believe the steel industry was as dominant in 20th century Pittsburgh as you seem to believe, even though U.S. Steel was one of the largest corporations in the U.S. for much of that period.

FORTUNE 500: 1960 Archive Full List 1-100
While the auto industry has had it's ups and downs Metropolitan Detroit has been fairly steady if you look at the larger picture and is on the upswing again. The city of Detroit is more a victim of it's own politics, mismanagement, and race relations, than it is a victim of being dominated by a single industry.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Washinton DC
64 posts, read 81,431 times
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Cleveland could have had a dominant industry, but it cut its own throat; the old guard families (Lakes shipping and iron mining) snubbed the Rockefeller family, who relocated to NYC. Huge mistake. Basically, CLE has been trying to recover ever since.
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Old 01-13-2016, 06:35 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,420,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasseyBrown View Post
Cleveland could have had a dominant industry, but it cut its own throat; the old guard families (Lakes shipping and iron mining) snubbed the Rockefeller family, who relocated to NYC. Huge mistake. Basically, CLE has been trying to recover ever since.
I don't know what you're talking about. Do you have any links/references?

Rockefeller went to high school with Marcus Hanna, who made his fortune in Great Lakes mining and shipping, and who was the Cleveland establishment and renown Republican king-maker. Both invested in The Arcade, one of the nation's great architectural gems (today largely a Hyatt hotel).

How Ohio made a president: Mark Hanna of Cleveland created modern politics in 1896 (video) | cleveland.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hanna

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._A._Hanna_Company

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Arcade

My memory is that the Ohio legislature, seeking to tap into Rockefeller's wealth, passed an intangibles tax, effectively an income tax, cementing Rockefeller's decision to leave Cleveland, but I couldn't find any information about that circumstance, so I didn't mention it.

Rockefeller obviously had a large attachment to Cleveland as he summered there and is buried in Lake View Cemetery in East Cleveland near his beloved Forest Hill estate.

BTW, Mark Hanna's career coincided with that of Tom Johnson, a legendary Cleveland mayor and "progressive," and often considered one of America's great mayors. Johnson waged constant political warfare with Hanna and his associates.

It was a pinnacle of Cleveland and Ohio politics, and perhaps not much different in philosophy, but not intensity, of what's playing out today in the U.S.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_L....and_philosophy

For myriad reasons, it would have made no sense for the petroleum industry to be headquartered in Cleveland. Most biographers say Rockefeller primarily relocated to New York to tap the financial resources available there as he expanded his empire, not only in energy, but also into mining and other industries. Rockefeller outgrew Cleveland and likely would have outgrown the Detroit of his era. The immensity of Rockefeller's wealth is unimaginable, as he arguably was the richest man in history. Remember that even long distance telephone calls were problematic during much of Rockefeller's career.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orical_figures

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller

http://www.businessinsider.com/riche...er-2011-4?op=1

Last edited by WRnative; 01-13-2016 at 07:21 AM..
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:39 PM
 
4,516 posts, read 5,090,184 times
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I agree with practically all of WRNative's points. I especially agree that being a 1-industry town, like Detroit, is more bad than good, and that diversified economies, like Cleveland and Pittsburgh have/had, is much more depression/recession proof.

With its multitude of corporations through the early 1980s (Sohio, Eaton, TRW, Sherwin-Williams, Republic Steel, OfficeMax ... among many others), Cleveland was the 3rd largest corporate HQ in the nation behind New York and Chicago. But the city has taken ginormous hits since that time -- companies like Sohio and OfficeMax were merged out of Cleveland (both went to the Chicago area), Republic Steel went bankrupt and was also merged out of Cleveland, etc., etc. ...

Still Cleveland, although still hurting economically in many ways, has made considerable progress because its mega-watt healthcare industry, and its spin-offs, through Cleveland Clinic, which is huge and internationally recognized, along with the smaller (though powerful in its own right) University Hospitals, have taken root. The 5/6-year-old Global Center for Health Innovation, is a downtown Convention Center based medical marketplace for health and bio-science corporations and start-ups worldwide.

Also historically speaking, Standard Oil (which in Cleveland was called Standard of Ohio after the breakup, or "Sohio"), was broken up by the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890. John D. Rockefeller developed a bit of a love-hate relationship for his old hometown. I have no doubt he always mostly loved it, but he received a lot of grief from local pols in the late 19th Century which motivated him to relocate much of his wealth to other cities, primarily New York and Chicago. Some wonder what Western Reserve University, though excellent in it's own right (now the consolidated, 37th best/ranked CWRU), would have been like had it received the money pile the newly-founded (1892) University of Chicago got from John D.

But he did leave much wealth here, notably the famed, and still gorgeous Rockefeller Park with its amazing, international Cultural Gardens, as well as the hillside residential set-aside in East Cleveland which is named for him -- it was once the site of Rockefeller's estate: Forest Hills.

I'll take being diversified over being a Detroit/Akron one-industry town any day. Not to mention the fact that Detroit's one industry, automobile manufacturers, have sponsored the death or hampering of mass transit systems nationwide, and have thwarted Detroit's chances to build a quality mass transit network that has lead to the huge destruction of that once great city to date.
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:37 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,420,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
Some wonder what Western Reserve University, though excellent in it's own right (now the consolidated, 37th best/ranked CWRU), would have been like had it received the money pile the newly-founded (1892) University of Chicago got from John D.

But he did leave much wealth here, notably the famed, and still gorgeous Rockefeller Park with its amazing, international Cultural Gardens, as well as the hillside residential set-aside in East Cleveland which is named for him -- it was once the site of Rockefeller's estate: Forest Hills.
John D. Rockefeller was a devout Baptist, which explains why the Univ. of Chicago, founded by the Baptists, was a target of his philanthropy.

I never knew that Rockefeller spent much time in Chicago or had any residence there.

Why was a prominent Baptist university established in Chicago and not in Cleveland? Because Cleveland was "too far east," according to the following definitive article by a Rockefeller archivist. Interestingly, Rockefeller at one point was willing to donate his Forest Hill estate for the purpose of relocating Denison, a Baptist college that he supported, to Cleveland. Could Denison have evolved into one of the nation's great private universities if that relocation had taken place? Denison today is a highly respected liberal arts college in Granville, east of Columbus. Partially, this idea was abandoned due to the temptations available to students at an urban university.

http://www.rockarch.org/publications/resrep/rose2.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univer....E2.80.931910s

If Denison had been relocated to Forest Hill, it's possible that today Cleveland's University Circle would be much larger than its current approximate square mile and contain two great universities, or an Ivy-like mega university. Much of the growth of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. took place in the 20th century. As demonstrated by the evolution of the Univ. of Chicago, a Rockefeller-sponsored university in Cleveland might have been a great educational powerhouse.
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Old 01-14-2016, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Montreal
836 posts, read 1,254,262 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
John D. Rockefeller was a devout Baptist, which explains why the Univ. of Chicago, founded by the Baptists, was a target of his philanthropy.

I never knew that Rockefeller spent much time in Chicago or had any residence there.

Why was a prominent Baptist university established in Chicago and not in Cleveland? Because Cleveland was "too far east," according to the following definitive article by a Rockefeller archivist. Interestingly, Rockefeller at one point was willing to donate his Forest Hill estate for the purpose of relocating Denison, a Baptist college that he supported, to Cleveland. Could Denison have evolved into one of the nation's great private universities if that relocation had taken place? Denison today is a highly respected liberal arts college in Granville, east of Columbus. Partially, this idea was abandoned due to the temptations available to students at an urban university.

http://www.rockarch.org/publications/resrep/rose2.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univer....E2.80.931910s

If Denison had been relocated to Forest Hill, it's possible that today Cleveland's University Circle would be much larger than its current approximate square mile and contain two great universities, or an Ivy-like mega university. Much of the growth of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. took place in the 20th century. As demonstrated by the evolution of the Univ. of Chicago, a Rockefeller-sponsored university in Cleveland might have been a great educational powerhouse.
Would such a university be more prestigious than Carnegie-Mellon in Pittsburgh? Because Carnegie-Mellon's technological-institute forerunners were founded by industrialists no less great than Andrew Carnegie (who was Rockefeller's rival) and the brothers Andrew and Richard Mellon. I'm just wondering why Rockefeller contributed to an entire university while Carnegie contributed to a technical institute, if Carnegie was even wealthier than Rockefeller?
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