Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Firstly, it should also be remembered that the Great Migration wasn't just about Blacks; Whites were very much part of that phenomenon as well. That is often overlooked.
Secondly, Blacks certainly did gain a certain measure of economic (and civic) freedom in the North, which was my primary point; never did I reduce that to "better salaries." However, while they did not experience de jure segregation in the North, they did experience de facto segregation and were often the targets in labor riots involving Whites and European immigrants.
Thirdly, my point, again, is that the reasons for the migration go beyond racial discrimination, although that was certainly a big part of it. The Great Migration also entailed an exodus of poor Blacks and Whites from the rural South to the rural North.
Fourthly, since I was speaking specifically of New Orleans, I should have made mention of factors specific to that city which was an anomaly in the South (and still is in many ways). Yes it was part of the Jim Crow South and all that came along with that, but due to the presence of several racial/ethnic groups in the city early in its history, there was a level of race mixing that was quite unique. P.B.S. Pinchback of New Orleans served as the first Black governor of in the U.S., and for a time the schools of New Orleans were integrated in the late 1800's. Also, due to their status as mixed race, Creoles in the city experienced a certain level of social independence compared to other Blacks.
I'm not certain of the extent of race riots in the North, nor how such violence compared, as measured by deaths, etc., with racial violence against African Americans in the South, an interesting question.
My point is that there were many integrated schools in the North, and, in my impression, virtually none in the South. There were no restrictions, except perhaps felony laws, on African Americans voting in the North.
Pinchback was elected during Reconstruction, when Union troops still policed LA.
Are you saying that New Orleans didn't have de jure segregation of schools, public facilities, etc.? Racial mixing certainly would have made such considerations much more complex in NO.
Some day it will, but perhaps not in our lifetime. No matter that the poll is now 31-68...the contest is not over. Eons from this moment our three Cleveland lifers will still be up there on stage, firing away at the mummified audience in front of them.
What are you laughing about? You can't even name anything comparable in New Orleans to the architecture that I listed. NO is charming, and with unique, historical architecture. There's no restaurant architecture in Cleveland as good as Antoine's, which I adore. Although the Blue Point Grille and Crop are interesting restaurant spaces in Cleveland, and the Blue Point almost makes me feel that I'm in NO, it's not Antoine's architecturally.
Yet nothing in NO approaches the magnitude of the Vans' undertakings in Cleveland. Shaker Heights is a garden city several times larger than the NO Garden District. It's connected by rail to a downtown complex which is one of the largest mixed used projects in the U.S. and certainly the oldest of its magnitude. It had a train station larger than Grand Central Station in NYC, which has now been converted to a mall.
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum is one of the signature works of I.M. Pei, one of the most renown architects of the 20th century. My hunch is that you've never heard of him or aren't familiar with his work, or you would be red-faced rather than laughing.
I guess, like Maxmodder, you believe you can dismiss any discussion with a "LOL."
Just because you've never heard of it, seen it, or even understand it, that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.
<< I found some fabulous architecture in unexpected places like Oklahoma City, Cleveland and Houston; there are several illustrations from Seattle. But most Americans, even architects, don’t know these buildings.>>
Shaker Heights is a city, the Garden District is a neighborhood within Uptown. Cleveland is also larger so it's neighborhoods will be larger. The Garden District is also connected by the worlds oldest streetcar connected to a world famous mixed-use neighborhood (The Quarter) as well as the rest of downtown (Bywater, Treme, Marigny). It's also a National Historic Landmark along with the streetcar.
Shaker Heights looks like it could be in other parts of the country, nice but not significantly unique or awe inspiring when compared to New Orleans.
I'm pretty sure a city built by three different nations and far more diverse immigrant pool makes for a more interesting variety of architecture than a city/neighborhood built strictly by two brothers.
I think half of the people on CD have heard of Pei, he's one of the most famous architects.
New Orleans isn't known for striking modern structures but there are some:
National WWII museum:
A house in uptown:
BioInnovation Center:
930 Poydras
Cleveland might have the win on modern architecture, I'll say that, but not overall.
The Arcade is beautiful, but I can't show you something that's "better." You probably have a personal connection to it, although Jackson Square is better in my opinion. It's not a building but the St. Louis cathedral, Cabildo, Presbytere, history, etc. Built in 1721 it's over 100 years older than the Arcade, which doesn't make it better but more interesting seeing as America wasn't even a nation then and Cleveland was considered the west.
It's also surrounded by the Quarter and Treme and Marigny which are some of the older and bohemian neighborhoods in the country. It's a shame that the Arcade is a hotel, looks better as shopping mall. Jackson Square is still a open public park that has free music and artists, locals riding long boards, rich people having dinner and homeless men begging for beer. The history and architecture make it all better to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Are you honestly saying that nobody in NO cares if they have a relatively pathetic economy???
Some NO posters obviously are enamored with their city's architecture. Which city, Maxmodder, do you think has the better architecture (see post 233)? I guess your silence perhaps is your answer.
Not at all but people in New Orleans love it regardless of the crime, corruption, and economy. The term "Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans?" applies here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Are you saying that New Orleans didn't have de jure segregation of schools, public facilities, etc.? Racial mixing certainly would have made such considerations much more complex in NO.
Yes but they also had black and creole elite members of society who lived as whites, were rich, and owned slaves, I don't think any other city in the south operated like that.
You don't want to talk about the relative economies, architecture or pro sports, and Cleveland's superior mass transit system is irrelevant.
We get it. You're a Cleveland basher, and one either unwilling or unable to defend his bash.
So just go away with your tail between your legs, once again.
Why bother discussing those points when you think that Cleveland is > New Orleans? Your pro Cleveland bias which has been pointed out to you numerous times just pollutes the conversation. Now you're back to claiming that I didn't say originally that millions of people took public transportation in Cleveland, which again, was made in post 159 which was the first post you sited on the matter. You back yourself into a corner once again and claim that my tail is between my legs? Oh the irony.
Last edited by maxmodder; 03-07-2016 at 09:36 PM..
Also, it simply isn't true that NO architecture is better than Cleveland. See my post 120 for acclaimed Cleveland architecture. What's listed by comparison for NO is the French quarter and some residences.
First off, It's all subjective. But I just had to laugh at this comment; In my opinion, I don't think Cleveland touches NO regarding architecture.
I'm not certain of the extent of race riots in the North, nor how such violence compared, as measured by deaths, etc., with racial violence against African Americans in the South, an interesting question.
My point is that there were many integrated schools in the North, and, in my impression, virtually none in the South. There were no restrictions, except perhaps felony laws, on African Americans voting in the North.
Pinchback was elected during Reconstruction, when Union troops still policed LA.
Are you saying that New Orleans didn't have de jure segregation of schools, public facilities, etc.? Racial mixing certainly would have made such considerations much more complex in NO.
I clearly said that de jure segregation was present in the South (that would include NOLA) while de facto segregation was a way of life in the North. I'm aware that Pinchback was governor during Reconstruction but he was still America's first, and only, Black governor until the election of Douglas Wilder of Virginia in the 1990's.
Again, economic considerations were a big factor in the phenomenon of the Great Migration as evidenced by the fact that it included Whites and also occurred intraregionally within the South. It would be a mistake to limit it to just racial discrimination and oppression although that was obviously a big factor as well.
Why bother discussing those points when you think that Cleveland is > New Orleans? Your pro Cleveland bias which has been pointed out to you numerous times just pollutes the conversation. Now you're back to claiming that I didn't say originally that millions of people took public transportation in Cleveland, which again, was made in post 159 which was the first post you sited on the matter. You back yourself into a corner once again and claim that my tail is between my legs? Oh the irony.
I never, never said or backed the claim that you "didn't say originally that millions of people took public transportation in Cleveland." Everybody knows that millions of persons use Cleveland RTA. That's why RTA has three (four, if the Waterfront line is considered a separate line) rail rapid lines, two long bus rapid transit line, and hundreds of separate bus lines.
Your straw man efforts to attribute false statements to me is not only deceitful, but it's such a ridiculous charge that it easily proves once again that you are a Cleveland basher. This charge is spurious, at best.
Answer the question about whether or not Cleveland has better architecture than New Orleans.
First off, It's all subjective. But I just had to laugh at this comment; In my opinion, I don't think Cleveland touches NO regarding architecture.
Unlike me, you haven't documented your claim. There are numerous architectural gems in Cleveland, such as Tower City/Shaker Heights development, The Arcade, the Cleveland Trust Rotunda, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and the West Side Market, that have no equivalents in NO.
There are many others that I didn't even mention, such as the Huntington Building with one of the largest bank lobbies in the world, Playhouse Square theaters, the Crile Building at the Cleveland Clinic, the renovated Cleveland Museum of Art, a $300 million project that created a 21st century museum that is one of the very best museum spaces in the U.S., etc.
I haven't been in the Huntington Building in decades, but it once had a basement level concourse offering shops and services, and connected by pedestrian tunnels running several blocks north to other office buildings, a very popular option during Cleveland winters. It was an amazing structure, especially at the time of its construction. For decades, the Huntington Building housed the national headquarters of Ernst & Ernst, one of the nation's then "Big Eight" accounting firms, as well as major law firms. Many migrated to Key Tower in the 1990s, dooming the Huntington Building and much of the economic vitality of East 9th St. The massive Key Tower and the also mammoth BP America Building (now 200 Public Square), shifted the economic center of Cleveland back to its Public Square. The old commercial center rapidly is being converted to mixed used development, fueling the rapid growth of downtown residents in Cleveland.
Cesar Pelli's Key Tower on Public Square is one of the tallest buildings in the U.S. and one of the very best buildings constructed in the 1990s in the U.S.
The only performance venue that I've ever visited in the U.S. that compares well to Severance Hall in its art deco splendor is Radio City Music Hall. What is comparable in New Orleans?
I'm curious. Have you ever visited Cleveland? Walked through The Arcade or the Fifth Street Arcades? Strolled East 4th St., the Warehouse District or the Market District on a summer weekend evening? Visited Severance Hall or the Cleveland Museum of Art? Gone to the Terminal Tower observation deck? Shopped at the West Side Market? Taken a rapid to Little Italy or Shaker Square? Strolled the new river walk on the East Flats? If not, what's your opinion worth???
I clearly said that de jure segregation was present in the South (that would include NOLA) while de facto segregation was a way of life in the North.
The de facto segregation in the North was not remotely as deleterious as the de jure and even more extreme de facto segregation in the South. Admittedly, neighborhoods were segregated in much of the North, especially until in the years after WWII, or earlier, when northern legislatures began to pass civil rights laws. Here's the story in Philadelphia, a much more southern city than Cleveland, Detroit or Chicago.
Cleveland was a leader in integrating pro sports, with the likes of Larry Doby and Satchel Paige on the Indians in the late 1940s, and Paul Brown's insistence on hiring the best available players for his Cleveland Browns, an NFL powerhouse in the 1950s with the likes of Marion Motley when other NFL teams remained segregated. It is one reason that many southern African Americans, such as notably Hank Aaron, were fans of the "old" (before the franchise moved to Baltimore) Browns.
Yet northern public universities were integrated, as were many, many high schools, although in major cities school boundaries, not de jure segregation, created segregated schools, although ones typically with small Caucasian or African American minorities, depending upon the school. There were not in the North race segregated public facilities, such as water fountains and rest rooms. African Americans largely could freely vote in the North. Many restaurants and hotels would service African Americans. The North didn't have the equivalent of legally enabled sharecropping serfdoms. African Americans weren't arrested when they wanted to travel to a different city and region.
Jessee Owens went to high school in Cleveland, a more integrated community in the 1930s than Columbus, just 150 miles to the south. As chronicled in the new movie, "Race," Owens did face significant discrimination in Columbus. Today, Owens is one of Ohio State's most honored and celebrated graduates, and this is because at least he was allowed to matriculate there in the 1930s.
The list of more pronounced economic, social and civil liberties in the North compared to the South is endless. All that was needed to induce the migration was the availability of jobs.
Southern whites migrating north also faced some discrimination, but the improvement in their social and civil freedoms was no where near the inducement that it was for southern African Americans. For whites, the inducement likely was almost all economic, as they perhaps even preferred the southern culture and weather.
The de facto segregation in the North was not remotely deleterious as the de jure and even more extreme de facto segregation in the South. Admittedly, neighborhoods were segregated in much of the North.
Yet public universities were integrated, as were many, many high schools. There were not in the North race segregated public facilities, such as water fountains and rest rooms. African Americans largely could freely vote in the North. Many restaurants and hotels would service African Americans. The North didn't have the equivalent of legally enabled sharecropping serfdoms. African Americans weren't arrested when they wanted to travel to a different city and region.
The list of more pronounced economic, social and civil liberties in the North compared to the South is endless. All that was needed to induce the migration was the availability of jobs.
Southern whites migrating north also faced some discrimination, but the improvement in their social and civil freedoms was no where near the inducement that it was for southern African Americans. For whites, the inducement likely was almost all economic, as they perhaps even preferred the southern culture and weather.
I'm not sure if you realize it, but you're actually partially making my point and people are pretty much aware of the histories of the South and the North. Anyway, I think we've digressed enough on a point that originally had to do with New Orleans' role in jazz and Cleveland's role in rock 'n roll which really aren't the same at all. Jazz actually originated in New Orleans whereas Cleveland just came up with the name "rock 'n roll" and hosted the first concert; the genre's origins are in Memphis and the Mississippi Delta.
Last edited by Mutiny77; 03-08-2016 at 08:49 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
