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Except Detroit is losing population while Phoenix is gaining
I'm not sure the cities population decline has a bearing on which city "feels" larger. However this poll is for the greater area in which case Detroit is not losing population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiam
Significantly? Isn't the Phoenix urban area weighted density higher than Detroit's?
Detroit is a legacy city with a built environment that held 2million people. It's metro and UA are likely more sprawled than Phoenix, which I would think makes it "feel" larger since it seems like you're in city longer. Phoenix started exploding during the era when urban planning was catering to the automobile. This makes difference in the "feel" of the cities. I'm not sure how many sq mi Central Phoenix is, at 141 sq mi I think you could put the city of Detroit over top of C. Phoenix and they'd have roughly about the same amount of people (700k). If you expanded Detroit to cover the same amount of land as Phoenix it would have around 1.7 million people in Wayne County. But I think the "feel" would speak more to built environment which would be edge Detroit.
But in terms of weighted density you are correct. Phoenix is much more dense than it's detractors realize. Even if you didn't weight out the density the Phoenician urban area is more dense than many east coast UA's.
I'm not sure the cities population decline has a bearing on which city "feels" larger. However this poll is for the greater area in which case Detroit is not losing population.
Detroit is a legacy city with a built environment that held 2million people. It's metro and UA are likely more sprawled than Phoenix, which I would think makes it "feel" larger since it seems like you're in city longer. Phoenix started exploding during the era when urban planning was catering to the automobile. This makes difference in the "feel" of the cities. I'm not sure how many sq mi Central Phoenix is, at 141 sq mi I think you could put the city of Detroit over top of C. Phoenix and they'd have roughly about the same amount of people (700k). If you expanded Detroit to cover the same amount of land as Phoenix it would have around 1.7 million people in Wayne County. But I think the "feel" would speak more to built environment which would be edge Detroit.
But in terms of weighted density you are correct. Phoenix is much more dense than it's detractors realize. Even if you didn't weight out the density the Phoenician urban area is more dense than many east coast UA's.
Yes, a lot of Western Metros are denser than most people realize due to water and land constraints. Its one thing to have a septic tank out in the hinterlands of Michigan within a reasonable commuting distance of Detroit or its suburbs, but when you more or less have to live on the grid due to where the water pipes go, you'll see that Phoenix is relatively dense. Sprawling density, but still dense nonetheless. Phoenix may not be Chicago, NYC, or Philadelphia, but it's denser than say, Atlanta Metro area or even Dallas and Houston. Las Vegas is another city that is dense sprawl due to land constraints and water issues.
Even the freeways in Phoenix appear to be "busier" than Detroit's due to their interaction with the arterial system. Detroit's freeways feel far removed from the city and metro itself. They're either built below the street level (all over Detroit itself) or they have a large tree buffer that separate them from the suburban landscape. Phoenix's freeways are wider and seem to have a lot of views of the surrounding houses and businesses due to the lack of tree cover and different land use policies.
What feels larger? Greater Detroit or Greater Phoenix?
- Built up environment of the core and nodes
- Feel of a city by drive (cohesive and contiguous development for a vast expanse)
- Level of vibrancy in urban neighborhoods
- Verticality of office, residential, shopping, and entertainment structures
- Infrastructure (roads, trains, sidewalks)
- High density of amenities
Feel free to use UA, MSA, or CSA.
Some metro areas have trees near the highway which block residential and commercial areas in the background....while other areas lack the foliage and you can see the continuous development. Hence, in some places you can see development and other places you cannot see it...unless you got off the highway (that is where the "feel" comes from...what you see. Seeing trees vs seeing development).
Texas has service roads in the big cities and they put a lot of their retail right off the service roads, which you can see. In Michigan the retail are on strips where you have to first exit the highway and drive a ways to get to it. Hence, if you are 25 miles from Detroit on 75, 94, 96 etc...you might not see the development from the highways....while you can see it in Houston...for example. It all depends on how things were designed.
In light of that, I tend to take note of when the 6 lane highways start. The major interstate highways become six lanes (3 lanes in each direction) at least 50 miles outside of Detroit. To me, highways are like arteries to a heart. The bigger the heart (metro area) the longer and wider the arteries. Hence, if you are a city that connects to another major city.....by a six lane highway.....you are connected to the heart. Once you go down to four lanes.....then you are disconnected. Hence, Going from Toledo, Ohio, to Detroit, to Flint, Michigan on Interstate 75 is all at least 6 lane highway. Note: If you are along a major thoroughfare from the North to the South.....like 95.....then such requires more lanes near cities. However, Detroit does not get a lot of pass through traffic....unless they are trucks going to Canada.
Detroit is a much more massive area than its metro ranking indicates. Its the commuting percentages that are brought down by a weak economic core that keeps Detroit MSA numbers so much smaller than its CSA totals. Many Metro areas MSA and CSA are pretty much the same. There are slightly over 10 million people in a 100 mile radius of Detroit....which is more than double the number of people in the MSA. The 100 mile radius population of Phoenix is likely not that much greater than its MSA.
I have never been to Phoenix though.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 08-29-2016 at 08:02 AM..
I've been to Phoenix twice and drove through Detroit once. IMO, they feel exactly the same size, but I would say Detroit metro feels slightly bigger, because it just has a more urban appearance and high density neighborhoods and a bigger skyline.
I see, so the general sentiment shared by most is that they feel around the same size, with the edge to Detroit as feeling a bit larger on the whole.
I've seen both in the more recent years, Detroit last week and Phoenix in March. I'd say it is pretty tough to distinguish a size difference between the two but that Phoenix is quickly closing whatever gap is between it and Detroit currently. They both seem to feel like they go on for a similar extent of time, Detroit actually a little bit more. In the downtown core, yeah I would say Detroit takes that but the areas surrounding the core in the middle ring, I would say Phoenix takes it there. In the outer ring, Detroit takes over again until the area ends.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facts Kill Rhetoric
I see, so the general sentiment shared by most is that they feel around the same size, with the edge to Detroit as feeling a bit larger on the whole.
I've seen both in the more recent years, Detroit last week and Phoenix in March. I'd say it is pretty tough to distinguish a size difference between the two but that Phoenix is quickly closing whatever gap is between it and Detroit currently. They both seem to feel like they go on for a similar extent of time, Detroit actually a little bit more. In the downtown core, yeah I would say Detroit takes that but the areas surrounding the core in the middle ring, I would say Phoenix takes it there. In the outer ring, Detroit takes over again until the area ends.
I don't know about that, it is 70 miles across our metro from Apache Junction to Buckeye, and it is over 60 miles across from Anthem to Maricopa
I don't know about that, it is 70 miles across our metro from Apache Junction to Buckeye, and it is over 60 miles across from Anthem to Maricopa
What is your implication by making this statement? That Phoenix would feel larger than Detroit because of this mileage? Is it your assumption that it takes less distance to get through the metro parts of Detroit? If by this statement you are saying metro PHX covers more distance than Detroit, I'm not sure you fact checked yourself. I'm not sure how this applies to the post you quoted.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,592,398 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo
What is your implication by making this statement? That Phoenix would feel larger than Detroit because of this mileage? Is it your assumption that it takes less distance to get through the metro parts of Detroit? If by this statement you are saying metro PHX covers more distance than Detroit, I'm not sure you fact checked yourself. I'm not sure how this applies to the post you quoted.
Also consider our suburbs are more dense with smaller lot sizes than the Detroit suburbs
Also consider our suburbs are more dense with smaller lot sizes than the Detroit suburbs
Feelings are subjective. Thus, what "feels" larger between the two areas is subjective as a consequence. For me, I base my feelings on the highways. You might base your feelings on contiguous development as seen from the highway or by taking some major road that traverses a metro....like Woodward in Detroit or Interstate 75. However, again, just because you do not see development (housing, commercial, retail, etc) from the highway does not mean there is not development when you exist the highway and get beyond the trees.
If you drive to Minneapolis (A metro and CSA not to far off from that of Phoenix) heading west on 94, you don't get 6 lane highways until you are about 25 miles away. I can tell when I am entering the edges of the a metro area, in most cases, by when the highways go from 4 to six lanes. If you are in the East Coast megalopolis, on 95, its probably at least 6 lanes from NY to DC. One metro area simply merges into another as there is no clear demarcation as to where one ends and the other begins.
That is how it is between Toledo and Detroit, Flint and Detroit, Ann Arbor and Detroit....and of course....Windsor and Detroit. One metro area merges into another....with lower density in between. Exurban Toledo, to the north, is exurban Detroit to its south. They share exurban areas and that is why the two metros are connected by 6 lane highways. The square mileage of the Detroit-Ann Arbor-Toledo-Flint-Windsor area (its footprint) is probably smaller than the footprint of the Phoenix MSA but with 2 1/2 million more people.
Here is the thing about Detroit that people do not realize. The MSA could grow by over 1 million people, overnight, without a single sole moving to the Detroit area. All that would have to change is commuting behavior of some areas. The people already exist in the area for Detroit to be a metro of 6 million people...if they just changed how they commute. If the majority of the jobs in a 50 mile radius was in Wayne County, primarily Detroit's CBD, Detroit would be a metro of 6 million and not 4.3 million. Most people do not realize that MSA and CSA numbers are based upon commuting percentages
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 08-31-2016 at 03:31 PM..
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