Does Toronto's urban structure have more in common with large US Midwest Cities or large US Northeast Cities? (state, population)

[bostonkid123]

I think maybe we should expand a little more beyond the surface aesthetics of rowhouses vs. buildings vs. single family units... I mean all this is great but I'm sure there are greater similarities/differences between Toronto and the rest of the cities beyond simple streetscape.

[NOLA101]

Here's a typical inner-city SFH neighborhood in Detroit. To me, it looks like typical inner city neighborhoods in Toronto. Mostly older detached homes, some rowhouses, a mix of housing sizes, setback from the street.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3294...7i13312!8i6656

Now here's a typical inner-city SFH neighborhood in Philly. Does this look like anything in Toronto? Don't think so.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9406...7i13312!8i6656

[citylover94]

You can see the difference in the streetviews of Boston that I posted and Boston is a bit of an outlier among northeastern cities for having so many freestanding apartment buildings instead of being dominated by row houses.

[gladhands]

Originally Posted by citylover94

I can't speak for Philly but in Boston there are some outer neighborhoods that can seem similar but it is very rare for buildings to be set back more than 5 or 6 feet from the street and most of the buildings are apartments not row houses or duplexes as seems to be the case in most of Toronto's neighborhoods. It just seems more similar to urban neighborhoods in Chicago or other midwestern cities where there are more setbacks and less apartment buildings.

Examples:

South Boston

Dorchester

Roxbury

Mattapan

Jamaica Plain

West Roxbury

[citylover94]

West Roxbury is rather spread out and suburban for Boston and it really doesn't make sense that it is in the city limits. On the other hand parts of Jamaica Plain are spread out but it is still a pretty walkable area and has good transit coverage.

Jamaica Plain a couple blocks north

TBH I think a large part of it for me is that the architecture in Toronto is very different and that on average there is greater setback of buildings from the street and slightly wider streets in many cases.

[gladhands]

Originally Posted by citylover94

West Roxbury is rather spread out and suburban for Boston and it really doesn't make sense that it is in the city limits. On the other hand parts of Jamaica Plain are spread out but it is still a pretty walkable area and has good transit coverage.

Jamaica Plain a couple blocks north

TBH I think a large part of it for me is that the architecture in Toronto is very different and that on average there is greater setback of buildings from the street and slightly wider streets in many cases.

I actually lived on THAT block in JP. I agree that JP is fairly dense and walkable. I understand wanting to exclude neighborhoods like Roslindale or West Roxbury, but the city is only 48 sq miles. It's not as if I posted a far-flung Queens or Staten Island neighborhood as exemplary of New York City. Wall Street's like that are atypical, they're not THAT uncommon.

[citylover94]

But that is sort of the Boston equivalent of posting a Queens or Staten Island streetview. On the other hand to the north of Boston there is an area almost equal in population and size to Boston of areas that are just as dense with minimal setbacks that is made up of Cambridge, Somerville, Chelsea, Malden, and Everett. This is really off topic anyways my main point is that urban walkable neighborhoods in Toronto seem to have a greater setback on average than Boston.

[bostonkid123]

Originally Posted by citylover94

West Roxbury is rather spread out and suburban for Boston and it really doesn't make sense that it is in the city limits. On the other hand parts of Jamaica Plain are spread out but it is still a pretty walkable area and has good transit coverage.

Jamaica Plain a couple blocks north

TBH I think a large part of it for me is that the architecture in Toronto is very different and that on average there is greater setback of buildings from the street and slightly wider streets in many cases.

Not sure about wider streets but yes definitely some setback. Many rowhouses or buildings either have a mini driveway for parking or a small paved garden in front of their doorway, where as in places like Boston or NYC that would be extremely rare.

In terms of actual street width, I actually find many streets in Toronto to be somewhat too narrow and claustrophobic. Several major North South boulevards in Toronto such as Yonge, King, and Queen have only 2-4 lanes max for traffic, and because of turning vehicles and heavy pedestrian traffic, often times you can only drive on 1 lane per direction.

Recently they took out another lane on Yonge to be reserved for pedestrian traffic, patio/seating areas, so it feels even more narrow:



This is what Yonge looks like if you go about 6 km north of downtown:



Typical streetscape on Queen and King streets, and other East-West boulevards. Because almost all major streets in Toronto have some kind streetcar trackage, that immediately takes out at least 2 traffic lanes:

[Atticman]

Originally Posted by NOLA101

Here's a typical inner-city SFH neighborhood in Detroit. To me, it looks like typical inner city neighborhoods in Toronto. Mostly older detached homes, some rowhouses, a mix of housing sizes, setback from the street.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3294...7i13312!8i6656

That block looks a bit like a Toronto street that's a little further from the core (or North of Bloor) and not the areas to the East and West of downtown that is heavily dominated by rowhouses and semi-detached homes that I already posted multiple streetview links to. The areas I linked to upthread (which you repeatedly ignore or call untypical when they are very typical for those parts of the city), contain most of the over 14,000 Victorian era rowhouses and just under 30,000 semi-detached homes (which are crammed together in rowhouse fashion).

A quick tour up the block and onto neighbouring streets in that Detroit link shows that any passing resemblance to the built environment of the detached housing areas of old Toronto quickly disappears as things quickly give away to wood frame housing and generally a more spread out, less dense looking built environment (in the intact areas, that is) than is typical of old Toronto that close to the downtown area. In Detroit's old neighbourhoods you have to search for a rare section of rowhouses (just one short row on that street) whereas in Toronto you can plunk down on just about any street near downtown South of Bloor and there will be plenty of rowhouses, in many cases the dominant housing form on the street.

[r small]

Originally Posted by Atticman

That block looks a bit like a Toronto street that's a little further from the core (or North of Bloor) and not the areas to the East and West of downtown that is heavily dominated by rowhouses and semi-detached homes that I already posted multiple streetview links to. The areas I linked to upthread (which you repeatedly ignore or call untypical when they are very typical for those parts of the city), contain most of the over 14,000 Victorian era rowhouses and just under 30,000 semi-detached homes (which are crammed together in rowhouse fashion).

A quick tour up the block and onto neighbouring streets in that Detroit link shows that any passing resemblance to the built environment of the detached housing areas of old Toronto quickly disappears as things quickly give away to wood frame housing and generally a more spread out, less dense looking built environment (in the intact areas, that is) than is typical of old Toronto that close to the downtown area. In Detroit's old neighbourhoods you have to search for a rare section of rowhouses (just one short row on that street) whereas in Toronto you can plunk down on just about any street near downtown South of Bloor and there will be plenty of rowhouses, in many cases the dominant housing form on the street.

Exploring with the streetview some of the nearby neighborhoods shows some extremely desolate looking areas. Entire blocks of houses practically wiped out. Very depressing. I think it's safe to sway that there is nothing in Toronto that even remotely resembles these abandoned neighborhoods in Detroit.