Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 10-25-2017, 09:58 AM
 
8,090 posts, read 6,889,666 times
Reputation: 9225

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
Got it, thanks. Well we spent about 20 pages arguing about the proper boundaries of "Downtown NY" and I don't want to reopen that can of worms I'll just say that if Downtown Chicago extends to Division -- which I absolutely agree it should and it does -- it doesn't make sense to me to cut off "Downtown NY" at 59th street and exclude so many of NY's top highlights from the frame of comparison.

What I am getting at, though, is that if you look at the very best of Downtown Chicago (the architectural highlights, the river and the new Riverwalk, the Mag Mile and the Millenium Park) I would agree that there is not much separating NY and Chicago. In fact, some might reasonably prefer Chicago's highlights (and indeed many do). The difference is that here is so much more of everything in NY -- because it is so much bigger and denser. You can do Downtown Chicago in a couple days (unless you are a museum buff). For Manhattan, you'll need a week.

So it all depends how you look at it. There is no right or wrong answer here.
I understand that 59th may not work as a hard cut-off. The tendency is not to split neighborhoods, so I'm inclined to exclude the whole of UWS and UES, but I'd be willing to concede that Midtown may actually creep up to 66th street. UWS and UES feature interspersed cultural amenities, but they're huge neighborhoods that span from 59th to 110th (or 96th). There's no way 85th and West End Ave or 72nd and York are a part of downtown NYC. They're sleepy and residential. I don't care how tall and dense the buildings are.

 
Old 10-25-2017, 10:00 AM
 
Location: In the heights
36,881 posts, read 38,781,820 times
Reputation: 20894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
Got it, thanks. Well we spent about 20 pages arguing about the proper boundaries of "Downtown NY" and I don't want to reopen that can of worms I'll just say that if Downtown Chicago extends to Division -- which I absolutely agree it should and it does -- it doesn't make sense to me to cut off "Downtown NY" at 59th street and exclude so many of NY's top highlights from the frame of comparison.

What I am getting at, though, is that if you look at the very best of Downtown Chicago (the architectural highlights, the river and the new Riverwalk, the Mag Mile and the Millenium Park) I would agree that there is not much separating NY and Chicago. In fact, some might reasonably prefer Chicago's highlights (and indeed many do). It's absolute world class. The difference is that here is so much more of everything in NY -- because it is so much bigger and denser. You can do Downtown Chicago in a couple days (unless you are a museum buff). For Manhattan, you'll need a week.

So it all depends how you look at it. There is no right or wrong answer here.
I'd say that Midtown and several parts of neighborhoods adjoining it are a larger, but sometimes less scenic (to me), greater Loop. However, then after that you have the massive other CBD in lower Manhattan, plus the extremely active in between those which are less high-rise, but oftentimes much more likable (which is an area I liken to a much denser Center City). In another topic, I think I saw those three areas, Midtown, Downtown, and the area in between which I've seen labelled as Midtown South, are all places among top ten largest office districts by square footage of office space and all three are large local, domestic, and foreign visitor destinations with nationally if not globally recognizable attractions.
 
Old 10-25-2017, 10:02 AM
 
Location: In the heights
36,881 posts, read 38,781,820 times
Reputation: 20894
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
I understand that 59th may not work as a hard cut-off. The tendency is not to split neighborhoods, so I'm inclined to exclude the whole of UWS and UES, but I'd be willing to concede that Midtown may actually creep up to 66th street. UWS and UES feature interspersed cultural amenities, but they're huge neighborhoods that span from 59th to 110th (or 96th). There's no way 85th and West End Ave or 72nd and York are a part of downtown NYC. They're sleepy and residential. I don't care how tall and dense the buildings are.
I think if you're going with a finer grained approach like that, then it makes sense to also exclude things like Stuyvesant Town-Peter Cooper, Cooperative Village, and a number of housing projects.
 
Old 10-25-2017, 10:12 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,546 posts, read 3,273,261 times
Reputation: 1924
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
I understand that 59th may not work as a hard cut-off. The tendency is not to split neighborhoods, so I'm inclined to exclude the whole of UWS and UES, but I'd be willing to concede that Midtown may actually creep up to 66th street. UWS and UES feature interspersed cultural amenities, but they're huge neighborhoods that span from 59th to 110th (or 96th). There's no way 85th and West End Ave or 72nd and York are a part of downtown NYC. They're sleepy and residential. I don't care how tall and dense the buildings are.
That's accurate no doubt, but you can nitpick like that for every "downtown" including Chicago's. I've pointed upthread to some stretches of South Loop that feel downright suburban before you even get to Roosevelt (eg around Dearborn Park). Or what about the west end of River North (west of N. Orleans) or some parts of the Gold Coast that are extremely residential? Yet you don't question if River North or Gold Coast should be part of Downtown Chicago.

River North in general is very hit or miss in terms of its "downtown feel". With Gold Coast you at least have density.
 
Old 10-25-2017, 10:22 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,546 posts, read 3,273,261 times
Reputation: 1924
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I think if you're going with a finer grained approach like that, then it makes sense to also exclude things like Stuyvesant Town-Peter Cooper, Cooperative Village, and a number of housing projects.
That would actually make more sense (as well as some empty stretches on the west side (though some of it is getting redeveloped with Hudson Yards)) than excluding any part of Uptown south of 86th.
 
Old 10-25-2017, 10:38 AM
 
Location: In the heights
36,881 posts, read 38,781,820 times
Reputation: 20894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
That would actually make more sense (as well as some empty stretches on the west side (though some of it is getting redeveloped with Hudson Yards)) than excluding any part of Uptown south of 86th.
Yea, I think so. Certainly the parts of the UES and UWS especially up through the 60s, Museum Mile, and Madison Ave into the 70s or 80s due to the high-end shopping and hotels. The massive amount of development on the Far West Side due to Hudson Yards, Javits Center and the High Line as well as the very well-trafficked waterfront are a shoe-in as well.

At this point, it might even be reasonable to start including DUMBO, downtown Brooklyn and Long Island City. Brooklyn Bridge Park is now probably among the most visited places in NYC at this point because of all the people walking, biking, subway-riding, and ferry-riding over for a visit. It's pretty absurd how crowded it gets and it is most assuredly not the people living in the adjacent neighborhoods that make up the majority of visitors.

Long Island City might have seen more development, but there's a big difference in that it started out from a smaller retail, employment and residential base and has probably much less in terms of jobs as the vast majority of what was added has been luxury residential. It right now feels a lot more like a residential area for people working in Manhattan and it's less connected than the equivalent in greater downtown Brooklyn since there's pretty scant walking/biking connections as the Queensboro Bridge is a pretty long trip. DUMBO and downtown Brooklyn has, in contrast, a massive number of institutions and corporate jobs as well as a stadium.

Going further out, you can maybe make an argument for Exchange Place in Jersey City, but the mental block of it being in New Jersey, the more limited transit options between it and the urban core, and lacking any direct walking/biking connection to the Manhattan core definitely prevents more visitors from popping in. Liberty State Park and Liberty Science Center are interesting, but I have a difficult time imagining these ever being big enough draws for them to have a place in most people's NYC itinerary, so it probably shouldn't count as neither local visitors nor tourists go there in particularly significant numbers.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-25-2017 at 11:10 AM..
 
Old 10-25-2017, 12:14 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,546 posts, read 3,273,261 times
Reputation: 1924
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Yea, I think so. Certainly the parts of the UES and UWS especially up through the 60s, Museum Mile, and Madison Ave into the 70s or 80s due to the high-end shopping and hotels. The massive amount of development on the Far West Side due to Hudson Yards, Javits Center and the High Line as well as the very well-trafficked waterfront are a shoe-in as well.

At this point, it might even be reasonable to start including DUMBO, downtown Brooklyn and Long Island City. Brooklyn Bridge Park is now probably among the most visited places in NYC at this point because of all the people walking, biking, subway-riding, and ferry-riding over for a visit. It's pretty absurd how crowded it gets and it is most assuredly not the people living in the adjacent neighborhoods that make up the majority of visitors.

Long Island City might have seen more development, but there's a big difference in that it started out from a smaller retail, employment and residential base and has probably much less in terms of jobs as the vast majority of what was added has been luxury residential. It right now feels a lot more like a residential area for people working in Manhattan and it's less connected than the equivalent in greater downtown Brooklyn since there's pretty scant walking/biking connections as the Queensboro Bridge is a pretty long trip. DUMBO and downtown Brooklyn has, in contrast, a massive number of institutions and corporate jobs as well as a stadium.

Going further out, you can maybe make an argument for Exchange Place in Jersey City, but the mental block of it being in New Jersey, the more limited transit options between it and the urban core, and lacking any direct walking/biking connection to the Manhattan core definitely prevents more visitors from popping in. Liberty State Park and Liberty Science Center are interesting, but I have a difficult time imagining these ever being big enough draws for them to have a place in most people's NYC itinerary, so it probably shouldn't count as neither local visitors nor tourists go there in particularly significant numbers.
All good points. The term "downtown" is frought with issues and, no matter how hard we try, we'll get tripped up by semantics. The term has a particular, well-understood meaning in NY and it's very difficult to relate it to a different context. But if it's meant to be a generic label for an area that includes the CBD plus adjacent dense urban core neighborhoods with strong mixed-use characteristics and amenities that attract residents and non-residents alike then certainly in NY it should include everything from Long Island City south to Carroll Gardens and east to Prospect Park; as well as the JC downtown area (including the nearby brownstone neighborhoods) and Hoboken.
 
Old 10-25-2017, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Manhattan!
2,272 posts, read 2,192,487 times
Reputation: 2080
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Yea, I think so. Certainly the parts of the UES and UWS especially up through the 60s, Museum Mile, and Madison Ave into the 70s or 80s due to the high-end shopping and hotels. The massive amount of development on the Far West Side due to Hudson Yards, Javits Center and the High Line as well as the very well-trafficked waterfront are a shoe-in as well.

At this point, it might even be reasonable to start including DUMBO, downtown Brooklyn and Long Island City. Brooklyn Bridge Park is now probably among the most visited places in NYC at this point because of all the people walking, biking, subway-riding, and ferry-riding over for a visit. It's pretty absurd how crowded it gets and it is most assuredly not the people living in the adjacent neighborhoods that make up the majority of visitors.

Long Island City might have seen more development, but there's a big difference in that it started out from a smaller retail, employment and residential base and has probably much less in terms of jobs as the vast majority of what was added has been luxury residential. It right now feels a lot more like a residential area for people working in Manhattan and it's less connected than the equivalent in greater downtown Brooklyn since there's pretty scant walking/biking connections as the Queensboro Bridge is a pretty long trip. DUMBO and downtown Brooklyn has, in contrast, a massive number of institutions and corporate jobs as well as a stadium.

Going further out, you can maybe make an argument for Exchange Place in Jersey City, but the mental block of it being in New Jersey, the more limited transit options between it and the urban core, and lacking any direct walking/biking connection to the Manhattan core definitely prevents more visitors from popping in. Liberty State Park and Liberty Science Center are interesting, but I have a difficult time imagining these ever being big enough draws for them to have a place in most people's NYC itinerary, so it probably shouldn't count as neither local visitors nor tourists go there in particularly significant numbers.
Those double-decker tour buses now cross the bridge into DUMBO and Downtown Brooklyn. I think it was only natural that this would happen being that the Brooklyn Bridge has been such a big attraction for so long, combined with all the recent insane growth and mainstream (inter)national attention Brooklyn has been getting lately.

Long Island City I don’t think is there yet. I feel like the neighborhood never really “came up” outside of maybe Vernon blvd area. Developers just are taking advantage of those sweet Midtown views and extreme convienence being a 5 minute commute or so to Midtown Manhattan and having so many subways in one place. It’s basically a giant construction zone of new shiny glass towers right now. There’s not really too much to do or see there. The Midtown views are nice but the waterfront is not as interesting as Brooklyn’s. I think LIC will become more touristy when the waterfront development is done of further along, and I think the neighborhood itself will fill up with a lot more stuff after these residential towers are complete.

If the PATH accepted unlimited Metrocards I think that Jersey City and Hoboken would see a lot more people coming over from NYC. I do know lately an increasing number of people that live in Manhattan but commute to work in Jersey City. It has been growing more and more as a business district, but I’ve always thought of JC as more of a satellite core than anything while Downtown Brooklyn and LIC Queens feel more like extensions of the main core in Manhattan just being that they are in the same city and are more connected in various different ways.
 
Old 10-25-2017, 12:30 PM
 
Location: So California
8,704 posts, read 11,041,227 times
Reputation: 4794
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbcook1 View Post
Biggest isn't usually best in my opinion. There are tons of small cities with great downtowns that really pack a punch for their size with tons of restaurants, breweries, residential living, and 24/7 vibrancy.

I would say Cincinnati is my favorite downtown if you include OTR, Pendleton, and Mt. Adams. Such awesome architecture and pedestrian-scale downtown urban form that reminds me of cities in Europe. It also packs more restaurants and bars per block than many cities its size or larger.

Other great downtown's I would rank in my top 10 including Cincy that I have visited are:

Asheville
Savannah
Charleston
Santa Monica
Berkeley
Fort Collins
Telluride
Greenville, SC
Cleveland

Honorable mentions:

Pittsburgh
Denver
Boulder
Durham
Pasadena
Winter Park, FL
New Orleans
Boston
Philadelphia
Alexandria

NYC does not really have a downtown core in the normal sense, more like three downtown areas (Midtown, Lower Manhattan, and downtown Brooklyn) so I did not include NYC. I have never been to Chicago, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, or any city in Texas so did not include any of those places on my list.
In California, I would add San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara


Ft. Worth, tx has done really well and has great plans going
 
Old 10-25-2017, 12:36 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,546 posts, read 3,273,261 times
Reputation: 1924
Quote:
Originally Posted by That_One_Guy View Post
Those double-decker tour buses now cross the bridge into DUMBO and Downtown Brooklyn. I think it was only natural that this would happen being that the Brooklyn Bridge has been such a big attraction for so long, combined with all the recent insane growth and mainstream (inter)national attention Brooklyn has been getting lately.

Long Island City I don’t think is there yet. I feel like the neighborhood never really “came up” outside of maybe Vernon blvd area. Developers just are taking advantage of those sweet Midtown views and extreme convienence being a 5 minute commute or so to Midtown Manhattan and having so many subways in one place. It’s basically a giant construction zone of new shiny glass towers right now. There’s not really too much to do or see there. The Midtown views are nice but the waterfront is not as interesting as Brooklyn’s. I think LIC will become more touristy when the waterfront development is done of further along, and I think the neighborhood itself will fill up with a lot more stuff after these residential towers are complete.

If the PATH accepted unlimited Metrocards I think that Jersey City and Hoboken would see a lot more people coming over from NYC. I do know lately an increasing number of people that live in Manhattan but commute to work in Jersey City. It has been growing more and more as a business district, but I’ve always thought of JC as more of a satellite core than anything while Downtown Brooklyn and LIC Queens feel more like extensions of the main core in Manhattan just being that they are in the same city and are more connected in various different ways.
Re: LIC -- it has a stunning new waterfront park, a ton of new highrises (already up and U/C), new bars, restaurants and even galleries constantly popping up and a lot of non-residential stuff around Court Square (the Courthouse, the Citi building, CUNY law school). I certainly think it's becoming a "destination spot" (if it's not there already). FWIW, I live in Midtown East and take the ferry to LIC all the time.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top