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View Poll Results: Which is the most-powerful, culturally-significant, world-class city??
Montréal 17 14.91%
Toronto 20 17.54%
Chicago 77 67.54%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-11-2016, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
15,331 posts, read 23,753,676 times
Reputation: 7419

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
You mean the Toronto Stock Exchange? The third largest stock exchange in the Americas and the largest energy/mining exchange in the world? Where over 75% of the world's gold is traded?
It's pretty clear your knowledge in finance and financial markets is severely lacking if you are trying to compare the TSX to the CBOE/CBOT/CME Group. TSX is a large market - no doubt about it, but it's extremely small compared to the Chicago Board of Options Exchange, which is by far the largest options market in the world. Literally the only market that has a larger market cap than CBOT/CBOE in the entire world are the foreign exchange (FOREX) markets.

Market Caps:
* Chicago Board of Options Exchange: $450 Trillion
* NYSE: $19.3 Trillion
* NASDAQ: $6.8 Trillion
* TSX: $2.781 Trillion

The CBOE is literally over 15 times larger in market cap than the NYSE, NASDAQ, and TSX combined. In fact, The CBOE is so large in market cap, that it is nearly 7 times larger than the 20 largest stock markets in the world combined (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stock_exchanges).


Nobody in their right mind would ever put TSX in the same league as what the CME Group has, and even CBOE alone. TSX is not a small market, but it is small compared to CBOE. Even the NYSE is small compared to CBOE. If you want to make a lot of money, you learn to trade options - and you either go to Chicago or NYC for it. There are a lot of rich people in both cities because of this market as a result, and at that a lot of young people who are rich from it. NYSE gets all the press, and that's because basic stock trading is easy to understand, but it is not where the money is at if you're doing just regular trading. If you want to make that money, you trade through the CBOE. There is a reason why a Chicago based company is paying the highest price per square foot for office real estate in the history of NYC right now (http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...-not-the-world)

Now, why else is what the CME Group manages important? It is the largest commodities market in the country, setting prices on commodities such as cattle, pork, soybeans, wheat, etc which in turn sets the prices on a large percentage of the food in the entire country. And while Gold can be seen as important, the majority of the country's oil trading goes through Chicago in these markets, setting the prices on even more things as well as shipping. A lot of international trading goes on there, though it also goes through ICE as well (which has an office in Chicago too for the record, for obvious reasons).

Last edited by marothisu; 11-11-2016 at 09:40 PM..

 
Old 11-11-2016, 09:29 PM
 
1,462 posts, read 1,414,815 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjun18 View Post
Those figure indicate decline. If the Chicago area (I'm assuming you mean the metro/Chicagoland which has a metro population of nearly 10 mill) grew by just 90k in the last 5-6 years, that's pretty bad. That is unfortunately super slow growth and one can consider it decline in comparison to previous population growth stats for the city and metro in the years prior.
And now you have the city itself which grew by just 82 people in the past year, not to mention the 700+ murders its about to have within the week or so.

The Chicago Public School situation, the pension crisis, etc. if you look all what's going on in Chicago compared to the good old years and of course Toronto doing so well in several areas, the first word that comes up to me for Chicago is "decline".
Then Toronto looks bad because none of the world rankings that were just recently posted put Toronto anywhere near Chicago.

Decline-noun
1.
a gradual and continuous loss of strength, numbers, quality, or value.
"a serious decline in bird numbers"

How has Chicago loss strength?
You are looking at issues cities have that have nothing to do with the overall prosperity of the city,

D.C was the murder capital and NYC was bankrupt in the 80s and 90s.That did not change the fact that they are and then STILL what they are.
Iconic cities like Chicago have had fires,wars and disease and yet they survive and thrive.Chicago compared to other cities in America does not even have the highest murder rate.
 
Old 11-11-2016, 09:45 PM
 
153 posts, read 162,536 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
It's all relative.

No one is saying Chicago is now Detroit or the equivalent of a 3rd world ghetto city.

Relative to all other large US cities, and Toronto, Chicago is in decline. It's declining from a powerful place, but it's still in decline.
This is what the numbers tell us, regardless of business activity in your little sector of the city.

People are moving away from the city of Chicago in much higher numbers than they are moving away from any other large city in the United States. This is not a sign of health, and indeed the first sign of stagnation/decline.

You mean the Toronto Stock Exchange? The third largest stock exchange in the Americas and the largest energy/mining exchange in the world? Where over 75% of the world's gold is traded?

And as for UofT, I'm perfectly fine with its world rankings, it's a top notch university in an incredible setting in downtown Toronto.

I wholeheartedly agree, famous people are not relevant in city discussions. Eminem is from Detroit, does that make Detroit better than every other city from which there isn't a comparably popular artist? Of course not.

But Drizzy...this guy has repped Toronto hard - to the point where he put the CN Tower on his album cover (the best selling album of 2016 by far). People watch his music video where there is a shot of the Toronto skyline and comment "hey that's the tower from the Views album!"

So I will defend him.
OMG really. You need to forget about music singers and groups have any significance to a cities stature.
Chicago is not a stagnant city OMG. Its Downtown experienced the largest growth in population last decade alone. Chicago had largest downtown population growth from 2000 to 2010 – YoChicago . I still has a prosperous growing Core outward into the cities oldest sought after neighborhoods adding new residents and corporate headquarters moving in. Neighborhoods also are getting new infill and gentrification continues.
***Really, you need to forget Rappers are a important level in a cities stature. After all, RAP is a African-American developed form of music. The musical style was merely imported to Canada and inspired music there too. Heck even the Beatle's of Britain gave credit in influence to American early Blues, Rockabilly and early US Rock n Roll. But as Artist in their own right. All musicians are just that. Musicians that some do make it to ICONS of their craft. Like Québec's and Canada's Celine Dion.

This year, the University of Chicago tied for third with Yale in the Best National Universities category. Last year, UChicago tied for fourth.
This year, Princeton took the top spot, followed by Harvard.

Here are the National University Rankings | Top National Universities | US News Best Colleges :

1. Princeton University (NJ)
2. Harvard University (MA)
3. University of Chicago (IL) (tie)
3. Yale University (CT) (tie)
5. Columbia University (NY) (tie)
5. Stanford University (CA) (tie)
7. Massachusetts Institute of Technology
8. Duke University (NC) (tie)
8. University of Pennsylvania (tie)
10. Johns Hopkins University (MD)

As for the CN Tower? IT AIN'T NO EIFFEL TOWER in stature in the world. Though for Toronto it surely is a symbol and landmark of your city. But in a world of 200 story buildings built in Saudi Arabia and Asian cities. It's not Iconic outside of Canada. Merely a Toronto Landmark and really is not what puts Toronto on the World's radar.
Even Seattle has a similar structure like it in its Space Needle. No one calls it iconic. But for Seattle it is still a landmark.
SEATTLE


*PLEASE TORONTONIANS. You can't boast for Toronto on the World's Stage? By demeaning Chicago and keep calling it in decline. It is evolving into a city that always overcame its issues from destruction to the Al Capone Era, Radical Racial change that still is increasing in Latino's and even Asian population. African American population has dropped the most. The White population is steady mainly by the 10s of thousands of Young Professionals moving into its Core.

It is time to STOP THE COFFIN NAILING PREMATURELY to lessen Chicago. Marathisu clearly noted it is not and why. There is keeping respectful to any city that yours is up against.
Attached Thumbnails
Toronto vs Chicago vs (gulp) Montréal....-seattles-space-needle_.jpg  
 
Old 11-11-2016, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
15,331 posts, read 23,753,676 times
Reputation: 7419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Othello Is Here View Post
Many cities are run poorly but have so much that keeps it relevant.If Chicago was as bad that it was in decline,companies would be leaving in droves before the population left.
The Chicago area has the 2nd most amount of Fortune 500 companies and 2nd most amount of Largest Private Companies of any metro area in the US. Only NYC area has more. Large companies continue to move to Chicago.

* ConAgra moved earlier this year from Omaha. It was #176 on the F500 list last year. It should be on the next F500 list for Chicago.
* GE Healthcare moved its HQ from London to Chicago this year. If it were not part of GE, it would be #192 on the F500 list
* Cushman and Wakefield moved its HQ from NYC to Chicago this year. The company has 43,000+ employees. Revenues are $5B+ per year.
* Duracell opened an executive office in Chicago this year where its CEO moved. Its HQ is in Connecticut still, but most of the top level executives actually moved to Chicago - again, including the CEO.
* Kraft-Heinz moved its Oscar Meyer division from Madison, WI to Chicago.
* Mars Wrigley announced last month that it is basing its candy HQ in Chicago, and not where it's HQ in Virginia.


Apart from that, there are a lot of companies that were already based in the area, but not in the city, which are moving its HQ to the city. That includes McDonald's, Wilson Sporting Goods, Kraft-Heinz, Beam-Suntory (the guys behind Jim Beam, Maker's Mark, Canadian Club, Courvosier, etc), etc.


While we are at it, the largest company based in Toronto by revenue is RBC at about $26.09B USD. By comparison, the largest company by revenue HQ'd in the Chicago area is Walgreen Boot Alliance which had revenue the other year at just over $103B. In fact, 7 companies HQ'd in the Chicago area have revenues higher than the largest by-revenue company in the Toronto area. Walgreen Boot Alliance, Boeing, Archer Daniels Midland, United Continental Holdings (United Airlines), Allstate, Mondelez International, and Exelon

Last edited by marothisu; 11-11-2016 at 10:14 PM..
 
Old 11-11-2016, 10:23 PM
 
615 posts, read 593,495 times
Reputation: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Othello Is Here View Post
Then Toronto looks bad because none of the world rankings that were just recently posted put Toronto anywhere near Chicago.

Decline-noun
1.
a gradual and continuous loss of strength, numbers, quality, or value.
"a serious decline in bird numbers"
Um what are you on? World rankings?

Toronto is the 4th most livable city in the world. By some metrics it is #1 in the world. Where is Chicago?
Toronto is the most diverse city in the world by percentage of foreign born citizens. Where is Chicago?
Toronto is among the fastest growing cities in North America and indeed the world. Where is Chicago?
Toronto was just ranked as the 4th most reputable city in the world (up from a 2015 ranking of 26th). Talk about rising image. Where is Chicago?
Toronto was ranked 3rd in the World for cities of opportunity by PWC (best cities to live in and work), where is Chicago?
Toronto ranks #12 among cities in the world in importance to the mega rich. Where is Chicago?

And I'm not posting these things to "boast". I'm posting them because Toronto is often underestimated or flies under the radar among Americans in many areas simply because it's Canadian.

Heck if it wasn't for Drake, most Americans still wouldn't know the name of the continent's 4th largest population center, let alone that 25% of their oil is routed through it.

Toronto lags American cities on fortune 500 HQs because most of those companies are American, and they are going to be based in American cities. But if Toronto was American, I would wager a lot more of these companies would move to Toronto over Chicago, considering Toronto is a substantially more desirable and stable place to live and work. This is why it's home to the majority of Fortune 500 companies' Canadian HQs.


Quote:
How has Chicago loss strength?
You are looking at issues cities have that have nothing to do with the overall prosperity of the city,
Chicago has lost strength because its population is shrinking, people (both white and black) are moving away from the city more than ever. Its government is corrupt, and has been literally running the place into the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UScityUrbanCores View Post
***Really, you need to forget Rappers are a important level in a cities stature. After all, RAP is a African-American developed form of music. The musical style was merely imported to Canada and inspired music there too. Heck even the Beatle's of Britain gave credit in influence to American early Blues, Rockabilly and early US Rock n Roll. But as Artist in their own right. All musicians are just that. Musicians that some do make it to ICONS of their craft. Like Québec's and Canada's Celine Dion.
Yes because by virtue of being in Canada, Toronto is often overlooked in US media, until Drake came along and took over.

Globally though no, Toronto being the largest most populous city of one of the most desirable countries to emigrate to is quite well recognized.


Quote:
As for the CN Tower? IT AIN'T NO EIFFEL TOWER in stature in the world. Though for Toronto it surely is a symbol and landmark of your city. But in a world of 200 story buildings built in Saudi Arabia and Asian cities. It's not Iconic outside of Canada. Merely a Toronto Landmark and really is not what puts Toronto on the World's radar.
Even Seattle has a similar structure like it in its Space Needle. No one calls it iconic. But for Seattle it is still a landmark.
SEATTLE
LOL Space needle?! The CN Tower is recognized as one of the 7 wonders of the modern world:

Quote:
In 1995, the CN Tower was declared one of the modern Seven Wonders of the World by the American Society of Civil Engineers. It also belongs to the World Federation of Great Towers, where it holds second-place ranking.[11][12][5]
It is more iconic than any building in Chicago.


Quote:
*PLEASE TORONTONIANS. You can't boast for Toronto on the World's Stage? By demeaning Chicago and keep calling it in decline. It is evolving into a city that always overcame its issues from destruction to the Al Capone Era, Radical Racial change that still is increasing in Latino's and even Asian population. African American population has dropped the most. The White population is steady mainly by the 10s of thousands of Young Professionals moving into its Core.

It is time to STOP THE COFFIN NAILING PREMATURELY to lessen Chicago. Marathisu clearly noted it is not and why. There is keeping respectful to any city that yours is up against.
No one is blindly demeaning Chicago. Pointing out rightfully that the city has been in decline for some time is just pointing out facts. Just because you are in denial doesn't change it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
It's pretty clear your knowledge in finance and financial markets is severely lacking if you are trying to compare the TSX to the CBOE/CBOT/CME Group. TSX is a large market - no doubt about it, but it's extremely small compared to the Chicago Board of Options Exchange, which is by far the largest options market in the world. Literally the only market that has a larger market cap than CBOT/CBOE in the entire world are the foreign exchange (FOREX) markets.

Market Caps:
* Chicago Board of Options Exchange: $450 Trillion
* NYSE: $19.3 Trillion
* NASDAQ: $6.8 Trillion
* TSX: $2.781 Trillion

The CBOE is literally over 15 times larger in market cap than the NYSE, NASDAQ, and TSX combined. In fact, The CBOE is so large in market cap, that it is nearly 7 times larger than the 20 largest stock markets in the world combined (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stock_exchanges).


Nobody in their right mind would ever put TSX in the same league as what the CME Group has, and even CBOE alone. TSX is not a small market, but it is small compared to CBOE. Even the NYSE is small compared to CBOE. If you want to make a lot of money, you learn to trade options - and you either go to Chicago or NYC for it. There are a lot of rich people in both cities because of this market as a result, and at that a lot of young people who are rich from it. NYSE gets all the press, and that's because basic stock trading is easy to understand, but it is not where the money is at if you're doing just regular trading. If you want to make that money, you trade through the CBOE. There is a reason why a Chicago based company is paying the highest price per square foot for office real estate in the history of NYC right now (http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...-not-the-world)

Now, why else is what the CME Group manages important? It is the largest commodities market in the country, setting prices on commodities such as cattle, pork, soybeans, wheat, etc which in turn sets the prices on a large percentage of the food in the entire country. And while Gold can be seen as important, the majority of the country's oil trading goes through Chicago in these markets, setting the prices on even more things as well as shipping. A lot of international trading goes on there, though it also goes through ICE as well (which has an office in Chicago too for the record, for obvious reasons).
I think I would question your financial knowledge if you're putting an options market in the same league as the TSX let alone the NYSE.

lol.

Last edited by Mr. Burns; 11-11-2016 at 10:33 PM..
 
Old 11-11-2016, 10:50 PM
 
615 posts, read 593,495 times
Reputation: 237
Also I find it funny how every post defending or providing info on Toronto is considered "boasting". If you guys see it that way, doesn't it mean we have a lot to "boast" about?

But of course we do, considering all things considered Toronto is probably the #1 city in the world to live in and work right now. It's the only city in the world with this combination of scale, large and diverse population, and low crime.

It is a model for how other cities should be.
 
Old 11-11-2016, 10:54 PM
 
1,635 posts, read 2,697,133 times
Reputation: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
The Chicago area has the 2nd most amount of Fortune 500 companies and 2nd most amount of Largest Private Companies of any metro area in the US. Only NYC area has more. Large companies continue to move to Chicago.

* ConAgra moved earlier this year from Omaha. It was #176 on the F500 list last year. It should be on the next F500 list for Chicago.
* GE Healthcare moved its HQ from London to Chicago this year. If it were not part of GE, it would be #192 on the F500 list
* Cushman and Wakefield moved its HQ from NYC to Chicago this year. The company has 43,000+ employees. Revenues are $5B+ per year.
* Duracell opened an executive office in Chicago this year where its CEO moved. Its HQ is in Connecticut still, but most of the top level executives actually moved to Chicago - again, including the CEO.
* Kraft-Heinz moved its Oscar Meyer division from Madison, WI to Chicago.
* Mars Wrigley announced last month that it is basing its candy HQ in Chicago, and not where it's HQ in Virginia.


Apart from that, there are a lot of companies that were already based in the area, but not in the city, which are moving its HQ to the city. That includes McDonald's, Wilson Sporting Goods, Kraft-Heinz, Beam-Suntory (the guys behind Jim Beam, Maker's Mark, Canadian Club, Courvosier, etc), etc.


While we are at it, the largest company based in Toronto by revenue is RBC at about $26.09B USD. By comparison, the largest company by revenue HQ'd in the Chicago area is Walgreen Boot Alliance which had revenue the other year at just over $103B. In fact, 7 companies HQ'd in the Chicago area have revenues higher than the largest by-revenue company in the Toronto area. Walgreen Boot Alliance, Boeing, Archer Daniels Midland, United Continental Holdings (United Airlines), Allstate, Mondelez International, and Exelon
Those are American companies. The U.S. has a population of 300 million people.
RBC is mainly a Canadian bank with some international business, but its primarily a Canadian Bank. Canada has about 36 million people.
How are we comparing Walgreens to RBC? Did you not know what countries each of these cities are in and the markets/areas that they serve?
 
Old 11-11-2016, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
15,331 posts, read 23,753,676 times
Reputation: 7419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
I think I would question your financial knowledge if you're putting an options market in the same league as the TSX let alone the NYSE.

lol.
You wouldn't question my financial knowledge if you knew what I get paid to do for a living. Anyway, my point was to show you how big it is. TSX is a large market, but extremely small compared to CBOE (and pretty much every market in the world, including other options markets are). I had asked you for something more important as the CBOE/CBOT. The matter of the fact is that there is none - even NYC would have trouble coming up with one. It is perhaps one of the most important markets in the world as it affects peoples' lives daily from the price of goods to the price of foods that is eaten every day. All of these prices are set through here which feeds into every single person's daily life. You cannot say that about a stock market. There is literally nothing else like this in the country or Canada that has this much impact on the actual daily lives of people.



As far as universities go, University of Toronto is a great university. My cousin actually did his Post Doc there under someone very famous in the Computer Science world. My cousin himself is well known in that field too, and I know for a fact how good U of Toronto is. It is comparable to Northwestern University in the Chicago area, which is also very well regarded. Unfortunately,
both of them completely pale in comparison to U of Chicago which is usually a top 10 worldwide ranked university on the level of a Harvard, Princeton, etc by most accounts.


This is the number of Nobel Laureates by university in the world. These are official counts, not unofficial.

1. University of Cambridge: 96
2. University of Chicago: 89
3. MIT: 85
4. Columbia: 82
5. Oxford: 51
6T. Stanford: 49
6T. University of Paris: 49
8. Harvard: 48
9. California-Berkeley: 47
10. Cornell: 46
11. Georg August University of Gottingen
12. Princeton: 38
13. Johns Hopkins: 36
14. NYU: 35
15. Cal Tech: 34
16. University College London: 30
17T. Humboldt University Berlin: 29
17T. University of Heidelberg: 29
19. UPenn: 28
20T. Yale: 25
20T. University of Manchester: 25
22T. Rockafeller University: 24
22T. University of Minnesota: 24
24T. Illinois Champaign-Urbana: 23
24T. Washington University-St. Louis: 23
26. University of Michigan: 22
27T. ETH Zurich: 21
27T. UC-San Diego: 21
27T. University of Edinburgh: 21
30T. Technical University of Munich: 20
30T. University of Strasbourg: 20
32T. Carnegie Mellon: 19
32T. London School of Economics: 19
32T. Wisconson-Madison: 19
35. University of Frankfurt: 18
36T. Case Western Reserve: 16
36T. Imperial College London: 16
36T. Leidan University: 16
39T. City University of New York: 15
39T. University of Vienna: 15
39T. Uppsala University: 15
42T. École Normale Supérieure: 14
42T. University of Copenhagen: 14
42T. University of Washington: 14
42T. University of Wurzburg: 14
42T. Ludwig Maximilians University of Munich: 14
47. UCLA: 13
48T. King's College London: 12
48T. McGill University (Montreal): 12
48T. University of Zurich: 12
51T. Duke: 11
51T. Purdue University: 11
51T. University of Utrecht: 11
51T. Moscow State University: 11
51T. Northwestern University: 11
51T. University of Birmingham: 11
57. University of Toronto: 10
 
Old 11-11-2016, 11:00 PM
 
1,635 posts, read 2,697,133 times
Reputation: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Othello Is Here View Post
Then Toronto looks bad because none of the world rankings that were just recently posted put Toronto anywhere near Chicago.

Decline-noun
1.
a gradual and continuous loss of strength, numbers, quality, or value.
"a serious decline in bird numbers"

How has Chicago loss strength?
You are looking at issues cities have that have nothing to do with the overall prosperity of the city,

D.C was the murder capital and NYC was bankrupt in the 80s and 90s.That did not change the fact that they are and then STILL what they are.
Iconic cities like Chicago have had fires,wars and disease and yet they survive and thrive.Chicago compared to other cities in America does not even have the highest murder rate.
Keyword... "was".

NYC and DC today are doing well. Chicago is slowly in decline compared to where it was before and its peers in recent years.

Also among large cities, Chicago's murder rate is up there. I'm not sure its if its #1 but its at least pretty close when we are talking about it's "peer" large cities. It's a bit out of the way to compare smaller/medium sized cities like Oakland and St Louis's murder rate to Chicago to make Chicago's homicide rate sound better.
 
Old 11-11-2016, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Manhattan!
2,272 posts, read 2,193,846 times
Reputation: 2080
Well, that's all great. But the thread is asking which of these cities is most powerful, not which is the easiest to live in.

Toronto does seem like a very nice place to live though (especially now with President Trump, lol)
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