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Partly because there really isn't much history to be nostalgic about. I mean, half the city population in Toronto are foreign born today, so why would any of them care to reminisce about those good old days when a small group of anglo elites from England ruled a medium-sized provincial capital...
My impression is that as time goes by, Toronto will undoubtedly mature and find its own unique set of cultural and historical identities - ones that it can actually be proud of such as its overwhelmingly liberal, progressive, and multicultural outlook and how that has resulted in a well-functioning city where you don't really need a particular dominant culture or racial group in order to succeed and thrive as a collective - that is a uniquely Toronto story and let's wait and see how it plays out in the upcoming years.
Or...
It could be that Toronto will simply soldier on as it always has. With an ill-defined, ever-evolving-but-never-quite-nailed-down, somewhat elusive civic persona.
I mean, Toronto's been a huge immigration city for a pretty long time. For over half a century or more probably.
Just because it keeps getting tons of new immigrants, doesn't mean it can't have an identity. Many cities in the world are like this including New York and London, and one can't say they don't have strong civic personalities.
When this issue is raised, people talk about Toronto as if it's uniquely diverse. And that that explains the loose identity.
I am not sure that's really the reason. There is something else there.
It could be that Toronto will simply soldier on as it always has. With an ill-defined, ever-evolving-but-never-quite-nailed-down, somewhat elusive civic persona.
I mean, Toronto's been a huge immigration city for a pretty long time. For over half a century or more probably.
Just because it keeps getting tons of new immigrants, doesn't mean it can't have an identity. Many cities in the world are like this including New York and London, and one can't say they don't have strong civic personalities.
When this issue is raised, people talk about Toronto as if it's uniquely diverse. And that that explains the loose identity.
I am not sure that's really the reason. There is something else there.
What is that something else if I may ask?
Firstly, you make it sound almost as if it's a bad thing to have "an ill-defined, ever-evolving-but-never-quite-nailed-down, somewhat elusive civic persona". From a day to day perspective, it really doesn't make a city a good or bad place to live. It's only when Hollywood blockbusters decide which city to destroy, or when we discuss/have heated exchanges on C-D that these "civic personas" actually come to the forefront. I was born in a city with 3000+ years of well-documented history and civic identity - feudal, imperial, colonial, republican, revolutionary communist - we've seen it all. So to someone like me it's actually quite refreshing to live in a place with a bit less "identity" burden.
Secondly, I'm not sure where this "Toronto has no civic identity" statement originates from. The problem with making such an allegation is that there is absolutely no way to verify whether it's true or false because a "civic identity" could mean so many things to so many different people. To you, Toronto may represent a bland blend of Anglo-dominated past with a collection of equally bland recent immigrant conclaves. But for someone like me who wasn't born in the West, who came from an ancient city where 98% of the population belong to one single ethnic group, Toronto's multiculturalism feels like a breath of fresh air, because I personally think it's impressive that all these immigrant groups can get along so well and can all come together to form a well-functioning city and creating one of the highest living standards in the world while at the same time being able to preserve their own cultural identities. Compared to my "old world" native country, this achievement in itself is and should be Toronto's number one civic identity. If you go around asking the same question to Torontonians, whether it's Mayor John Toronto or your white suburban dweller in Port Credit or your newly arrived Syrian refugee living in Mississauga or the investment banking professional working downtown, they'd give you the exact same answer that multiculturalism is in itself a Toronto civic identity second to none.
Thirdly, in many cities with the so-called "civic identities" or "personas" - they are quite often 1. outdated 2. inaccurate and/or 3. contradictory to real life experiences in those respective cities.
For example, New York's "big apple" - city of opportunity identity - may be true 50 or 100 years ago when the city was rapidly growing and expanding, when it offered a small piece of the apple and a good quality life to every new comer willing to work for it. But most of us can agree that today's NYC is a city of extreme gentrification, class division, and one of the highest wealth gaps between the have and have-nots. I have worked for sometime in NYC's investment banking industry and I know from first hand experience how working 80-100 hours per week while earning a 6-figure salary could still mean sharing a flat with 3 roommates, expensive housing and healthcare, and at best a mediocre quality of life in the long run. I have many friends who are still in the same situation today going into their late 20s and mid-30s.
Montreal's "joie de vivre" persona can be equally perplexing - perhaps it is still true in some quarters of the city but for many, it is out of reach. A close friend of mine doing his master's in experimental cancer treatment research at the Mcgill University School of Medicine has been working 3 part-time jobs just to make ends meet due to Mcgill's tuition hikes and the fact that public research institutions only pay a petty $19,000 a year to full-time graduate research positions. Many of his classmates have to do the same to make ends meet. When I asked this summer how he and his classmates were enjoying Montreal's "joie de vivre lifestyle", they simply laughed. When you cannot afford basic housing, when tens of thousands of public university students have to face untenable tuition increases every year, when one has to to deal with a crumbling infrastructure on a daily basis, when one can't drive more than a block down your neighborhood without encountering pothole-filled roads on one's daily commute or the twice-weekly Metro breakdowns on one's way to or from work - that "joie de vivre" illusion can quickly evaporate. With that said, Toronto also faces the exact same affordability and infrastructure challenges as Montreal, but no one ever immigrated to Toronto with the illusion of "joie de vivre" in their mind.
Perhaps another way to look at cities today is to truly look at them for what they are, to the people living in them today, and the myriad of cultural, economic, and infrastructural challenges AND opportunities that each city and its residents face in the upcoming months and years, instead of clinging overly onto outdated, misleading, or vague notions of identity. I apologize for this extra long post, but I feel like I owe you and others on here a good, wholesome response and not just short talking points.
Last edited by bostonkid123; 11-18-2016 at 03:54 PM..
"Chicago based on what the OP asked.Not even close.On all accounts.
Chicago gave us the Skycraper,House Music,Barack Obama,Chicago Blues,Earnest Hemingway,McDonalds,Al Capone,The Magnificent Mile,etc.I cant name one thing even close to those things known around the world about any of the other cities.
Thats not a knock but few cities other than NYC,LA,SF,DC can compare in this regard." //www.city-data.com/forum/46076059-post11.html
^So it's okay for a Chicagoan to acknowledge Chicago "giving the world Al Capone", but ignore Chicago's current gang culture and it's socio-economic issues when it's brought up by a non-Chicagoan?
If you say so...
You're correct. The OP did include cultural significance in their thread title. But let's not act like socio economic factors such as crime don't have an effect on things like education, business, population, politics etc. which are all criteria which eventually defines what a world class city.
Actually you brought up those crime isssues as SOON as someone made a point you could not counter
ActuallyIm NOT a Chicagoan and never have been.Crime and history are 2 separate things.I know you are just looking for a way out but it really shows how far you are willing to stick with something even when there is overwhelming evidence you are wrong.
Its been shown that Toronto has massive problems with corruption in its police department,Shoddy constructoion all acrooss Toronto with windows falling out,a massive uptick in gun crimes from last year but somehow THAT is not DECLINE because its LESS than Chicago's.
Firstly, you make it sound almost as if it's a bad thing to have "an ill-defined, ever-evolving-but-never-quite-nailed-down, somewhat elusive civic persona". From a day to day perspective, it really doesn't make a city a good or bad place to live. It's only when Hollywood blockbusters decide which city to destroy, or when we discuss/have heated exchanges on C-D that these "civic personas" actually come to the forefront. I was born in a city with 3000+ years of well-documented history and civic identity - feudal, imperial, colonial, republican, revolutionary communist - we've seen it all. So to someone like me it's actually quite refreshing to live in a place with a bit less "identity" burden.
Secondly, I'm not sure where this "Toronto has no civic identity" statement originates from. The problem with making such an allegation is that there is absolutely no way to verify whether it's true or false because a "civic identity" could mean so many things to so many different people. To you, Toronto may represent a bland blend of Anglo-dominated past with a collection of equally bland recent immigrant conclaves. But for someone like me who wasn't born in the West, who came from an ancient city where 98% of the population belong to one single ethnic group, Toronto's multiculturalism feels like a breath of fresh air, because I personally think it's impressive that all these immigrant groups can get along so well and can all come together to form a well-functioning city and creating one of the highest living standards in the world while at the same time being able to preserve their own cultural identities. Compared to my "old world" native country, this achievement in itself is and should be Toronto's number one civic identity. If you go around asking the same question to Torontonians, whether it's Mayor John Toronto or your white suburban dweller in Port Credit or your newly arrived Syrian refugee living in Mississauga or the investment banking professional working downtown, they'd give you the exact same answer that multiculturalism is in itself a Toronto civic identity second to none.
Its not a "bad" thing BUT it defines what is the differences between a city like London.,Paris,Stockholm,NYC,etc who have seen so much of everything that has a world wide impact versus Toronto.
Quote:
they'd give you the exact same answer that multiculturalism is in itself a Toronto civic identity second to none
Yes and its annoying because nobody can tell you about anything the city is known for world wide but they will say this without fail.
You guys are programmed to believe its a best thing in the world that no body else has.
Diversity is not measured by a measuring stick.People just want it. Nobody in their right mind is coming to Toronto ONLY because its diverse or the MOST diverse.
the fact tha yet another person is telling you that nobody knows Toronto's idenity is not a slap in the face.It just is what it is.Its something that will happen as the city comes into its own
All references to Toronto being a_______ Chicago or a _________version of Chicago or NYC is proof of that.
Especially not if the people in the city itself aren't interested in their own history. One of Toronto's strong points is undoubtedly its forward looking focus, but one does get the impression it doesn't have much time for its history and heritage.
Been there three times and have many friends old and new raised in Toronto.No one has ever been able to tell me what Toronto is or its history.
Montreal I have been 8 times.Never had a problem from residents showing me or me finding on my own with ease.
All of those people I see walking around Toronto with t-shirts and ball caps emblazoned with "T-dot", "416" "the 6ix" or other Toronto identifying streetwear don't seem to have any trouble nailing down their version of the local civic persona -- they seem pretty sure of where they live and pretty proud of it, too.
Been there three times and have many friends old and new raised in Toronto.No one has ever been able to tell me what Toronto is or its history.
Montreal I have been 8 times.Never had a problem from residents showing me or me finding on my own with ease.
You yourself mentioned earlier that not once did you actually live/stay in the city of Toronto. All 3 times you mentioned that you actually stayed in Brampton, Mississauga, and another suburban city outside of Toronto, none of which is an actual part of Toronto proper... It's like staying only in Jersey City a bunch of times and saying you know exactly how being a New Yorker is like. lmfao.
I'm not going to continue feeding into your one-dimension view of Toronto, because every time I mention an observation of the city that I live in day in day out, your response would be instant denial followed by a negative critique ("Multiculturalism is not an actual identity", "Toronto buildings are ugly"). I don't think I've ever mentioned one negative aspect of Chicago, or went out of my way to attack places I barely know. What does one have to gain from throwing misleading labels about places they hardly know? Really puzzling phenomenon. You definitely reserve the right to your opinion, and I reserve mine. I think we can leave it at that.
Last edited by bostonkid123; 11-18-2016 at 04:18 PM..
Chicago has been often referred to as a cleaner, more laid back midwestern NYC. I've seen it mentioned in comparison to NYC countless times, many right here on city-data. Look around.
What a shame. Chicago has reached 700 homicides in 2016. First time since 1998.
And there is still less than a month and a half to go.
Only adults revel in the horror that a segment of the population of a city (and country, and race) suffer from on a daily basis just so they can get "points" on their city data argument.
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