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I think the real reason people complain about Toronto is that
1. It has an unfair advantage when compared to U.S cities. Canadian cities are all pro-immigration generally and can grow massive numbers into the future due to Trudeau’s government views on immigration. American cities have much more restrictions and thus when you compare them to each other it’s easier. Apples to apples comparison.
2. CSA. vs. Golden Horseshoe, While CSA is mostly B.S people actually commute those distances, I have yet to meet people who commute from Niagara Falls-Saint Catherines area to Toronto. Canadian cities are twice as dense as American cities in general and Golden Horseshoe seems more akin to the Boston-Providence CSA (something that really isn’t a thing- essentially boils down to Bristol County MA and Brockton, MA) rather than San Francisco CSA or even Washington Baltimore CSA. Which has people commuting from a core Baltimore suburban county directly into core D.C area and has plentiful highway connections. GH seems like a connection of cities rather than an urban corridor centered on Toronto. Like I don’t understand at all why Niagara Falls and Saint Catherine’s are part of Toronto’s CSA. You clearly leave the area and you enter Hamilton which is more in line with Toronto, not the same with San-Fran or even Baltimore-Washington seems more akin to BosWash. I understand size differences are important reason why U.S cities are bigger but I don’t feel people greet the cities of the Golden Horseshoe the same way people treat the Bay Area or Baltimore-Washington. His is because Canadian cities even the suburban areas are in compact grids, when a Canadian city ends it ends pretty abruptly compared to a major American one. Look at Milton to Mississauga all you see is open land and Milton is well in the “CSA”, now look at Baltimore-Washington their is a clear mixing even Boston-Providence mixes a bit. The lack of real developer dominated suburban sprawl makes it look more like a collection of cities rather than a real connected area. Same with the highway infrastructure.
I understand Chicago MSA is physically bigger than Toronto GTHA by a lot but if Chicago was split up into just its urban areas and a fill in of the gaps so its similar to Toronto in essentially the same 3,000+ square miles as Toronto’s GTHA you get 9 million+ people compared to 7.6 million people or so in the GTHA, to me although the CSA is a fraud the GGH is as fraudulent as believing Boston CSA is an 8 million person city (actually much close to Houston/Philly/D.C/ Phoenix/ Atlanta in size.
Great assessment that they may comprehend ... We shall see if it gets feedback?
The comparison is still totally irrelevant. Montreal and Toronto were rivals for a very long time, and as English remains important in Montreal, Montreal could have retained its status as the major Canadian center. However, with Toronto's dynamism and with the threat of (and early assassinations of) Quebec secession, that was not meant to be. Toronto eclipsed and later permanently passed Montreal, consolidating Canadian finance, corporations, most media, and so forth.
I think you are vastly overstating the importance of English in Montreal vs Toronto. Montreal has cemented itself as a major world Francophonie city. Toronto as a region however is much larger than Montreal as a region. About double the size as the GGH does and is increasingly functioning as a U.S CSA. I think Acajack best captures what Montreal is about and where it is and where it is going and it is pretty much aligned with what I am saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbauknight
Los Angeles and New York occupy different universes in the US. They are also diminished by the sheer size of the US (a country of 325 million with over 50 urban areas of 1 million-plus). They are closer in population in terms of urban and even trade (CSA) regions. Neither will ever dominate each other or the country as a whole like Toronto dominates Canada, Mexico City dominates Mexico, or Paris dominates France. No US city should be compared to those three.
I think the real reason people complain about Toronto is that
1. It has an unfair advantage when compared to U.S cities. Canadian cities are all pro-immigration generally and can grow massive numbers into the future due to Trudeau’s government views on immigration. American cities have much more restrictions and thus when you compare them to each other it’s easier. Apples to apples comparison.
Why would someone 'complain' about Toronto because of this? I don't disagree with your conclusion I just don't get why it would be 'used' against Toronto. The city is in a different country with totally different population and social dynamics. Do you complain about other cities in the world with different dynamics that you would see as being advantageous over U.S cities. From what I know Australian cities like Syndey and Melbourne are rapidly growing with similar growth rates to Toronto and U.S Sunbelt cities. Would you complain about them being at an advantage over Detroit. Kinda silly if you ask me. Btw - the current liberal gvmt under Trudeau has raised the threshold of immigrants per year allowed in Canada but even the previous Conservative gvmt under Harper still maintained strong levels of immigration. This is something that has widespread party support among all 3 of Canada's major political parties and has been the case for a half century.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare
2. CSA. vs. Golden Horseshoe, While CSA is mostly B.S people actually commute those distances, I have yet to meet people who commute from Niagara Falls-Saint Catherines area to Toronto. Canadian cities are twice as dense as American cities in general and Golden Horseshoe seems more akin to the Boston-Providence CSA (something that really isn’t a thing- essentially boils down to Bristol County MA and Brockton, MA) rather than San Francisco CSA or even Washington Baltimore CSA. Which has people commuting from a core Baltimore suburban county directly into core D.C area and has plentiful highway connections. GH seems like a connection of cities rather than an urban corridor centered on Toronto. Like I don’t understand at all why Niagara Falls and Saint Catherine’s are part of Toronto’s CSA. You clearly leave the area and you enter Hamilton which is more in line with Toronto, not the same with San-Fran or even Baltimore-Washington seems more akin to BosWash. I understand size differences are important reason why U.S cities are bigger but I don’t feel people greet the cities of the Golden Horseshoe the same way people treat the Bay Area or Baltimore-Washington. His is because Canadian cities even the suburban areas are in compact grids, when a Canadian city ends it ends pretty abruptly compared to a major American one. Look at Milton to Mississauga all you see is open land and Milton is well in the “CSA”, now look at Baltimore-Washington their is a clear mixing even Boston-Providence mixes a bit. The lack of real developer dominated suburban sprawl makes it look more like a collection of cities rather than a real connected area. Same with the highway infrastructure.
It all comes down to commuter thresholds. You'd have to take the US CB's thresholds and apply them to the GGH to determine if all of those cities would meet the requirement. There may be some that don't but there also may be some that do that aren't even a part of the GGH. You don't need 'everyone' from Niagara Falls or every far flung city in the GGH commuting to Toronto to be a part of the CSA - just the requirements of the U.S CB. I know A LOT of people from Barrie who commute to Toronto for work. They drive down back and forth on the Highway 400 every day to Toronto for work or they take GO Transit. Same with Newmarket, Aurora etc so yeah - don't discount commuting within the region - you'd probably be surprised how much the GGH actually would meet US CB definitions of CSA. On the other hand - I do agree with your general assessment of Canadian cities being a bit more autonomous and functioning as their own unit. Kitchener/Waterloo make a strong case for this. You should look up Metrolinx (Go is a part of that agency and is the body that overseas regional PT in the GGH) and is currently engaging in the largest transit build in Canadian history and it is all about regional connectivity. Increasingly the region is becoming more and more connected. Throw in about 160K net new people into that region a year and well - things are changing pretty rapidly.
Also - while you may not 'know' anyone who commutes from N.F or St. Catherines to Toronto - the concept of commutes between those jurisdictions is not foreign. https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/0..._11405276.html
Milton is actually surrounded by greenspace that is protected due to the places to grow act. Why do you think things sort of just stop at 9th line in Mississauga - because that region isn't growing - no its protected greenspace. That said, Milton is connected pretty strongly to Toronto via Highway 401 which runs right through Milton. Commuter thresholds between Milton and Toronto would be very high actually. Much higher than N.F. Oshawa for example is much further away from Scarborough than Milton is to Mississauga yet Oshawa is completely contiguous to Whitby, Ajax and Pickering.
Speaking of Highways - I think the 407 and 404 are the best examples of major highways in the region expanding as a reflection of a more 'connected' region. Don't discount the highway network in the GGH. Within Canada - nothing comes close.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare
I understand Chicago MSA is physically bigger than Toronto GTHA by a lot but if Chicago was split up into just its urban areas and a fill in of the gaps so its similar to Toronto in essentially the same 3,000+ square miles as Toronto’s GTHA you get 9 million+ people compared to 7.6 million people or so in the GTHA, to me although the CSA is a fraud the GGH is as fraudulent as believing Boston CSA is an 8 million person city (actually much close to Houston/Philly/D.C/ Phoenix/ Atlanta in size.
Well there are probably more areas of the GTHA that are 'green' than in Chicago's MSA. That said, I don't think I've ever stated that Toronto would be a larger MSA or CSA than Chicago or even that its MSA is substantially more dense than Chicago's though it is moving in that direction. I've always stated that on that level the two are more alike than not. This is where I think Toronto and Chicago distance themselves from other U.S MSA's minus NYC and L.A - they 'feel' substantially larger because they don't need 'commuter' thresholds of a CSA to make them 'big' - they are big and they are dense. Any moron who drives around the GTHA or Chicago MSA vs S.F or Boston would be able to quickly see that as urban areas they are simply more contiguous and physically larger than S.F, Bos or Wash/Balt. A CSA will NEVER be able to capture that. The biggest advantage Toronto has over Chicago is net new growth. I don't think the GTHA or GGH will expand much more at all - the places to grow act drove a stake in sprawl in Ontario back in 2005 - so all those 138K people coming into the GTHA every year will simply be accommodated within the existing footprint.
Why would someone 'complain' about Toronto because of this? I don't disagree with your conclusion I just don't get why it would be 'used' against Toronto. The city is in a different country with totally different population and social dynamics. Do you complain about other cities in the world with different dynamics that you would see as being advantageous over U.S cities. From what I know Australian cities like Syndey and Melbourne are rapidly growing with similar growth rates to Toronto and U.S Sunbelt cities. Would you complain about them being at an advantage over Detroit. Kinda silly if you ask me. Btw - the current liberal gvmt under Trudeau has raised the threshold of immigrants per year allowed in Canada but even the previous Conservative gvmt under Harper still maintained strong levels of immigration. This is something that has widespread party support among all 3 of Canada's major political parties and has been the case for a half century.
It all comes down to commuter thresholds. You'd have to take the US CB's thresholds and apply them to the GGH to determine if all of those cities would meet the requirement. There may be some that don't but there also may be some that do that aren't even a part of the GGH. You don't need 'everyone' from Niagara Falls or every far flung city in the GGH commuting to Toronto to be a part of the CSA - just the requirements of the U.S CB. I know A LOT of people from Barrie who commute to Toronto for work. They drive down back and forth on the Highway 400 every day to Toronto for work or they take GO Transit. Same with Newmarket, Aurora etc so yeah - don't discount commuting within the region - you'd probably be surprised how much the GGH actually would meet US CB definitions of CSA. On the other hand - I do agree with your general assessment of Canadian cities being a bit more autonomous and functioning as their own unit. Kitchener/Waterloo make a strong case for this. You should look up Metrolinx (Go is a part of that agency and is the body that overseas regional PT in the GGH) and is currently engaging in the largest transit build in Canadian history and it is all about regional connectivity. Increasingly the region is becoming more and more connected. Throw in about 160K net new people into that region a year and well - things are changing pretty rapidly.
Also - while you may not 'know' anyone who commutes from N.F or St. Catherines to Toronto - the concept of commutes between those jurisdictions is not foreign. https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/0..._11405276.html
Milton is actually surrounded by greenspace that is protected due to the places to grow act. Why do you think things sort of just stop at 9th line in Mississauga - because that region isn't growing - no its protected greenspace. That said, Milton is connected pretty strongly to Toronto via Highway 401 which runs right through Milton. Commuter thresholds between Milton and Toronto would be very high actually. Much higher than N.F. Oshawa for example is much further away from Scarborough than Milton is to Mississauga yet Oshawa is completely contiguous to Whitby, Ajax and Pickering.
Speaking of Highways - I think the 407 and 404 are the best examples of major highways in the region expanding as a reflection of a more 'connected' region. Don't discount the highway network in the GGH. Within Canada - nothing comes close.
Well there are probably more areas of the GTHA that are 'green' than in Chicago's MSA. That said, I don't think I've ever stated that Toronto would be a larger MSA or CSA than Chicago or even that its MSA is substantially more dense than Chicago's though it is moving in that direction. I've always stated that on that level the two are more alike than not. This is where I think Toronto and Chicago distance themselves from other U.S MSA's minus NYC and L.A - they 'feel' substantially larger because they don't need 'commuter' thresholds of a CSA to make them 'big' - they are big and they are dense. Any moron who drives around the GTHA or Chicago MSA vs S.F or Boston would be able to quickly see that as urban areas they are simply more contiguous and physically larger than S.F, Bos or Wash/Balt. A CSA will NEVER be able to capture that. The biggest advantage Toronto has over Chicago is net new growth. I don't think the GTHA or GGH will expand much more at all - the places to grow act drove a stake in sprawl in Ontario back in 2005 - so all those 138K people coming into the GTHA every year will simply be accommodated within the existing footprint.
Thanks for the reply. I know Milton has green space etcetera but that was part of my point in Canadian cities being denser and different from U.S cities, look at urban areas and if you take out the center city of U.S metros you will see most of them are half as dense as Canadian cities same with Australian cities. The thing with Chicago CSA is it doesn’t add anything, most of its MSA are actual Chicago suburbs that the city didn’t just pick up. I’m not saying Canadian cities can’t be compared but that people don’t like comparing them because they have a unique history from most American cities and have a crutch when compared to U.S cities. Canadian cities don’t need a CSA like Balt-Wash does or the Bay Area does to show the full scope of the area, since Canadian cities don’t give into developers like American ones and are more planned (at least that’s my perception), Americans will move to an area 70 miles away with the sole goal of commuting, while I don’t think Canadian cities are that way and each city is actually ment to be more independent this the highway network between Baltimore and Washington suburbs vs. most of the GGH area.
Thanks for the reply. I know Milton has green space etcetera but that was part of my point in Canadian cities being denser and different from U.S cities, look at urban areas and if you take out the center city of U.S metros you will see most of them are half as dense as Canadian cities same with Australian cities. The thing with Chicago CSA is it doesn’t add anything, most of its MSA are actual Chicago suburbs that the city didn’t just pick up. I’m not saying Canadian cities can’t be compared but that people don’t like comparing them because they have a unique history from most American cities and have a crutch when compared to U.S cities. Canadian cities don’t need a CSA like Balt-Wash does or the Bay Area does to show the full scope of the area, since Canadian cities don’t give into developers like American ones and are more planned (at least that’s my perception), Americans will move to an area 70 miles away with the sole goal of commuting, while I don’t think Canadian cities are that way and each city is actually ment to be more independent this the highway network between Baltimore and Washington suburbs vs. most of the GGH area.
No problem - it is nice to have this discussion with you! Milton is kind of unique in this regard. It is quite heavily surrounded by protected greenspace. I wouldn't say it is as typical a representation as other parts of the GTA or GGH even. That said, it is also well connected to Toronto and is as strong a bedroom community of Toronto as any other. The green areas are also pretty small surrounding it and Mississauga. You can drive from the westernmost fringe of Mississauga on Derry Road and you are in Milton in about 10 minutes. This isn't exactly far flung and you don't feel like you are in the wilderness lol.
I agree with you and disagree with you about Canadian cities and American. I agree that yes, they are typically more dense and the bones a bit different. However, you can't clump all Canadian cities together. I think that is where many Americans don't really get Toronto as a metro except for a few like Factskillrhetoric. The GGH is about as close to a CSA as probably any Canadian city could get. An area about the size of Chicagoland has about 9.5 million people around and including Toronto. That is 1 million more than the Province of Quebec. That is not a 'typical' Canadian City. Montreal while a dense and urban city from a Metro perspective tapers off a lot more quickly than Toronto. As a metro and region - i'd say Toronto may actually share and increasingly so -more in common on a macro level with large U.S cities vs Canadian. It still has Canadian bones inside - but how it functions as a region is not too dissimilar to U.S MSA's and CSA's. It may be a more dense and compact CSA than U.S CSA's - NYC, L.A and Chicago excluded. In the Canadian context, Metrolinx wouldn't fly in any other Canadian city but Toronto. Look at Regional heavy rail in Montreal vs Toronto - Toronto's is much more extensive and busy. Same with regional highway network.
Which leads me to another point - if more CAD cities functioned like Toronto/GTA/GGH. I'm pretty sure StatsCan would start adopting US CB measures including stuff like the CSA. They have their function but people shouldn't get carried away with what they mean. In no way is a CSA or even MSA an indicator of 'contiguous urbanized area'
Well pretty darn close to winning some kind of lottery No one would say a dummy. But still it achieved what it has and can be boasted has achieved (and surely is).... claiming it's growing faster, building more and ....... no matter how gifted and smooth it all came. In the end it is "The Rising Star" of NA. NYC the only city (some literally claimed) TO. hasn't surpassed by its growth, Urbanity, Density and high-rise living as a badge of this stardom.
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Any city that becomes fairly large usually has a factor or a bunch of factors its favour that amount(s) to "winning the lottery".
Regarding Toronto, as has been noted the transfer of anglo-dominated businesses and population from Montreal is just one factor among many that made the city what it is.
As has also been mentioned, the anglo businesses and people who were Canada's movers and shakers were already either moving to Toronto from Montreal or starting out in Toronto right away upon their arrival in Canada, even before separatism got going in Quebec.
I think you are vastly overstating the importance of English in Montreal vs Toronto. Montreal has cemented itself as a major world Francophonie city. Toronto as a region however is much larger than Montreal as a region. About double the size as the GGH does and is increasingly functioning as a U.S CSA. I think Acajack best captures what Montreal is about and where it is and where it is going and it is pretty much aligned with what I am saying.
I think this is very accurate but I'd say the presence in English in Montreal is still a very formidable one. But it's very much a legacy-driven thing - usually a holdover from the old days.
There isn't much new that's "anglo-driven" (for lack of a better term) that gets started in Montreal these days.
That type of thing is happening in other cities right now - usually Toronto of course.
I think this is very accurate but I'd say the presence in English in Montreal is still a very formidable one. But it's very much a legacy-driven thing - usually a holdover from the old days.
There isn't much new that's "anglo-driven" (for lack of a better term) that gets started in Montreal these days.
That type of thing is happening in other cities right now - usually Toronto of course.
Montreal didn't exactly collapse either. There were still a lot of French Canadian movers and shakers as it were that remained and continued to support the success of the city. I can easily list quite a few prominent Canadian corporations that are based in Montreal and yes, they do attract domestic migration even from English parts (I know people who are from T.O that moved to work in Montreal in my industry and I also work with quite a few French Canadian Quebecers who moved here), but of course Toronto would get more English domestic speaking migration and Montreal French. I think Montreal should continue on the course it has taken of late. I think it has served itself and the citizens of Quebec and also the country at large well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
Any city that becomes fairly large usually has a factor or a bunch of factors its favour that amount(s) to "winning the lottery".
According to Rand McNally these were top 10 largest metro areas in North american in 2017.
1 New York United States 23,723,696
2 Mexico City Mexico 22,000,000
3 Los Angeles United States 17,500,000
4 Chicago United States 8,759,312
5 Washington United States 8,300,000
6 San Francisco United States 7,610,000
7 Boston United States 7,350,000
8 Philadelphia United States 7,300,000
9 Toronto Canada 7,165,061
10 Dallas United States 6,500.000
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No one would say a dummy. But still it achieved what it has and can be boasted has achieved (and surely is).... claiming it's growing faster, building more and ....... no matter how gifted and smooth it all came. In the end it is "The Rising Star" of NA. NYC the only city (some literally claimed) TO. hasn't surpassed by its growth, Urbanity, Density and high-rise living as a badge of this stardom. 
