Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-16-2018, 07:47 AM
 
377 posts, read 333,580 times
Reputation: 254

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by _OT View Post
Even if it's run down or "empty," it's still more Urban, lol that's the point I made above. Detroit, Cleveland and pretty much most Rust Belt cities have run down areas, they're still Urban regardless.



All of Birmingham's older Streetcar Suburbs still have residents. it's not a freaking wasteland, that's probably the most idiotic thing I've read today, no offense. If New York was hit with an apocalyptic gas that literally killed off most of it's residents, the city would still be FAR more Urban than Atlanta. Saying otherwise doesn't make any logical sense lol.



The "main road" in Hoover, which is strictly car-oriented is more vibrant than those Birmingham neighborhoods. But no person who uses any logical sense would base the models of urbanity off of that argument, and assume that Hoover is more Urban.


If those Birmingham neighborhoods were at full capacity, you'd CLEARLY see which were the most urban of the two. Infill Projects seem much more promising in Birmingham than they would in Atlanta because of Birmingham's layout and older buildings.

That "run down" area in Ensley, is also making it's way to being redeveloped. Not to mention, Ensley is miles away from the Core of Birmingham, yet it still has better Urban Bones than most of Atlanta Streetcar Suburbs right outside of Atlanta's Downtown.

http://image.al.com/home/bama-media/...806f235ced.png

You travel 5 miles outside of the Core of Atlanta, and none of those outer ring neighborhood will look comparative.

According to CD, Ensley doesn't have residents.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5007...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5017...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4912...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4887...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5085...7i13312!8i6656
Yea I'm in agreement on this point, if the point of discussion is urbanity how "run down" it is carries little weight unless you are specifically addressing lack of vibrancy such as having no population. Each of those "run down" areas listed are very well populated if not vibrant and very urban in structure and function. There are other historic areas as well that fit the bill based off the street grid, vibrancy, commercial areas etc. some "run down" some not so much (Inglenook, Highland Park, West End, Fountain Heights, Forest Park, Glen Iris etc.)

I agree with the reference to streetcar suburbs one in particular (5 Points South) is very popular and has been vibrant and well populated for years. The point about suburban vibrancy being conflated with urbanity (even if it is old or run down) is noted as well.

Yea I can assure you that Ensley has plenty of residents and is very much a neighborhood that is urban in character and function. The idea of vast empty wasteland with no discernible life is symbolic of the false information about Birmingham that leads to gross and misleading stereotypes about the city that hurt its image greatly until recently. As far as I've seen these neighborhoods structurally speaking are no less urban than the historic neighborhoods in Atlanta or Memphis.

Last edited by cherokee48; 04-16-2018 at 08:00 AM.. Reason: new
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-16-2018, 08:07 AM
 
37,792 posts, read 41,479,186 times
Reputation: 27052
Quote:
Originally Posted by _OT View Post
Even if it's run down or "empty," it's still more Urban, lol that's the point I made above. Detroit, Cleveland and pretty much most Rust Belt cities have run down areas, they're still Urban regardless.

All of Birmingham's older Streetcar Suburbs still have residents. it's not a freaking wasteland, that's probably the most idiotic thing I've read today, no offense. If New York was hit with an apocalyptic gas that literally killed off most of it's residents, the city would still be FAR more Urban than Atlanta. Saying otherwise doesn't make any logical sense lol.

The "main road" in Hoover, which is strictly car-oriented is more vibrant than those Birmingham neighborhoods. But no person who uses any logical sense would base the models of urbanity off of that argument, and assume that Hoover is more Urban.
There's such a thing as structural urbanity and there's such a thing as functional urbanity. A place might have been built in a more urban way, but if there aren't any people around, then functionally it doesn't matter at all. To not make this distinction is pretty disingenuous and irresponsible.

Quote:
If those Birmingham neighborhoods were at full capacity, you'd CLEARLY see which were the most urban of the two. Infill Projects seem much more promising in Birmingham than they would in Atlanta because of Birmingham's layout and older buildings.

That "run down" area in Ensley, is also making it's way to being redeveloped. Not to mention, Ensley is miles away from the Core of Birmingham, yet it still has better Urban Bones than most of Atlanta Streetcar Suburbs right outside of Atlanta's Downtown.

http://image.al.com/home/bama-media/...806f235ced.png

You travel 5 miles outside of the Core of Atlanta, and none of those outer ring neighborhood will look comparative.

According to CD, Ensley doesn't have residents.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5007...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5017...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4912...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4887...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5085...7i13312!8i6656
But those places aren't at full capacity and while there may be people living in the vicinity, those commercial areas are run down with some boarded up businesses and not very many people frequenting the area. But of course you can't see that that's the point being made because you're so busy trying to prove that Birmingham is Boston compared to Atlanta.

Furthermore, Ensley used to be its own city and was eventually absorbed by Birmingham so trying to compare it to streetcar suburbs in Atlanta isn't an apples-to-apples comparison but I'm not surprised because this is what you do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-16-2018, 09:25 AM
 
377 posts, read 333,580 times
Reputation: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
There's such a thing as structural urbanity and there's such a thing as functional urbanity. A place might have been built in a more urban way, but if there aren't any people around, then functionally it doesn't matter at all. To not make this distinction is pretty disingenuous and irresponsible.



But those places aren't at full capacity and while there may be people living in the vicinity, those commercial areas are run down with some boarded up businesses and not very many people frequenting the area. But of course you can't see that that's the point being made because you're so busy trying to prove that Birmingham is Boston compared to Atlanta.

Furthermore, Ensley used to be its own city and was eventually absorbed by Birmingham so trying to compare it to streetcar suburbs in Atlanta isn't an apples-to-apples comparison but I'm not surprised because this is what you do.
I disagree, structural urbanity references the structure of a city or neighborhood, for example; how densely populated, how are the streets laid out (linear grid like pattern versus more circular suburban subdivision template) access to commercial areas in walking distance, easy access to public transit etc. all of which are part of the urban structure of a city or neighborhood which differentiates it from being rural or suburban.

Full capacity of a neighborhood is irrelevant in terms of urbanity unless the neighborhood is functionally (day to day or manifested in daily life) abandoned or almost empty, I think that is the point being made and I certainly think it is correct. 80%-almost 50% populated neighborhoods in urban areas are very populated and typically more populated than rural areas nonetheless with many people from within and outside of the neighborhood frequenting the area. Business areas being 24 hr mixed use areas are optimal but do not make an area un-urban if their commercial areas are not fully utilized and to OT's point under no circumstance could you say these areas are not urban no matter how "empty" (I use that term loosely) they are. I didn't get from OT that he was trying to prove B'ham is Boston compared to Atlanta nor am I, that's a pretty big reach, he did however highlight a misnomer and oversight about Birmingham and seems to be saying give credit where due or at least be equitable in terms of assessment.

A cursory view of Atlanta's history of streetcar suburbs shows that it is very near to apples to apples with Birmingham as OT referenced. West End in Atlanta is not in the city center(just like Ensley isn't in B'ham's city center) and as a streetcar suburb was annexed into Atlanta in 1894, just like Ensley was annexed into Birmingham. Whether a "city" or "neighborhood" both served as streetcar suburbs that were annexed into their respective cities due to sprawl and streetcars. I'd review the history more closely to avoid such oversight in the future, again the goal here is to be factual and equitable in terms of assessment.

Last edited by cherokee48; 04-16-2018 at 09:29 AM.. Reason: add on
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-16-2018, 09:55 AM
 
3,859 posts, read 4,236,239 times
Reputation: 4504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pemgin View Post
I'm really confused how these bleak pictures of Birmingham are supposed to be an argument for B'ham being more urban than Atlanta. Hell, I'm confused why anyone would try to argue Birmingham is more urban than Atlanta.
Confusing me too. Even high growth cities like Raleigh and Durham (outside of downtown) have urban pockets that are seeing a renaissance with great blends of old with the new. I'm not discounting B'hams historic structures, however, urbanity compared to Atlanta...you gotta be kidding me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-16-2018, 12:09 PM
 
10,489 posts, read 6,922,342 times
Reputation: 32281
Birmingham's a great town, one that has enjoyed a lot of momentum in the past five years. What's more, with its long flat grid in a wide valley, the urban center has the capacity to grow a great deal. For the first 50 years of its existence from 1870 onward, Birmingham was thought to become the next large American city and planned accordingly. Then the Great Depression hit, the Civil Rights Era came, and lots of stupid people made a lot of stupid decisions about the city's future. So Birmingham spent roughly 50 years wandering in the wilderness while others passed it by.

But it's a headscratcher to compare its urban footprint with Atlanta.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-16-2018, 12:18 PM
_OT
 
Location: Miami
2,183 posts, read 2,389,746 times
Reputation: 2048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
Confusing me too. Even high growth cities like Raleigh and Durham (outside of downtown) have urban pockets that are seeing a renaissance with great blends of old with the new.
That’s the thing though, you’ll see those throughout the Birmingham area as well, I could’ve mentioned Lakeview, Forest Park, Five Points, Mountain Brook, or the Redevelopment plans for Southtown and etc.. But like I mentioned before, that wasn’t my point. When I was going on about Urbanity, I was referring to the WHOLE city in its entirety, regardless if a neighborhood is run down or not.

You compare the Westside of Birmingham to the Westside of Atlanta, Raleigh or Durham, and there wouldn’t be anything to compare.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-16-2018, 12:27 PM
_OT
 
Location: Miami
2,183 posts, read 2,389,746 times
Reputation: 2048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
Furthermore, Ensley used to be its own city and was eventually absorbed by Birmingham so trying to compare it to streetcar suburbs in Atlanta isn't an apples-to-apples comparison but I'm not surprised because this is what you do.
You pretty much just proved my point. lol

Don’t blame me, blame the users who keep referencing neighborhoods like L4W or Sweet Auburn, when I often mention, over and over again that Ensley was an entirely different city with its own economy, developed neighborhoods, and Downtown Area. And as a Birmingham neighborhood now, there’s not really any neighborhoods in Atlanta (especially outside of the core) that structurally compares to Ensley’s layout or urban bones.

Ensley might look “run down” but at least it has something already to build from. Most of Atlanta’s run down areas would need timely planning just to redevelop the area, or in other terms, start from scratch.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-16-2018, 01:53 PM
 
37,792 posts, read 41,479,186 times
Reputation: 27052
Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokee48 View Post
I disagree, structural urbanity references the structure of a city or neighborhood, for example; how densely populated, how are the streets laid out (linear grid like pattern versus more circular suburban subdivision template) access to commercial areas in walking distance, easy access to public transit etc. all of which are part of the urban structure of a city or neighborhood which differentiates it from being rural or suburban.

Full capacity of a neighborhood is irrelevant in terms of urbanity unless the neighborhood is functionally (day to day or manifested in daily life) abandoned or almost empty, I think that is the point being made and I certainly think it is correct. 80%-almost 50% populated neighborhoods in urban areas are very populated and typically more populated than rural areas nonetheless with many people from within and outside of the neighborhood frequenting the area. Business areas being 24 hr mixed use areas are optimal but do not make an area un-urban if their commercial areas are not fully utilized and to OT's point under no circumstance could you say these areas are not urban no matter how "empty" (I use that term loosely) they are. I didn't get from OT that he was trying to prove B'ham is Boston compared to Atlanta nor am I, that's a pretty big reach, he did however highlight a misnomer and oversight about Birmingham and seems to be saying give credit where due or at least be equitable in terms of assessment.
We are defining terms differently. Structural urbanity, to me, refers to the structures themselves in terms of layout, setbacks, etc. Population density, vibrancy, and transit usage all relate to functional urbanity and this is where people come into play. Being structurally more urban means nothing in reality if buildings are boarded up and run down, there are little to no businesses for people to patronize, there are little to no pedestrians in the area, etc.

And I've said before that nobody is taking anything away from Birmingham but this attempt to make it leaps and bounds more urban than Atlanta is just silly and disingenuous no matter how you slice it.

Quote:
A cursory view of Atlanta's history of streetcar suburbs shows that it is very near to apples to apples with Birmingham as OT referenced. West End in Atlanta is not in the city center(just like Ensley isn't in B'ham's city center) and as a streetcar suburb was annexed into Atlanta in 1894, just like Ensley was annexed into Birmingham. Whether a "city" or "neighborhood" both served as streetcar suburbs that were annexed into their respective cities due to sprawl and streetcars. I'd review the history more closely to avoid such oversight in the future, again the goal here is to be factual and equitable in terms of assessment.
Yes, West End would be a much better example to compare with Ensley as both were their own municipalities annexed by their neighboring larger cities. I know nothing about Ensley but West End was not a planned streetcar suburb like Inman Park, Grant Park, Druid Hills, etc. which gives it a slightly different built form than the others. Another example would be East Atlanta. I also get the sense that OT was not categorizing Ensley as a streetcar suburb as he continued to contrast Atlanta's streetcar suburbs (naming them specifically as such) with those older neighborhoods in Birmingham; he even said "With that being said, those neighborhoods [streetcar suburbs in Atlanta] are significantly different from the Birmingham neighborhoods I'm describing." So what's good for the goose has got to be good for the gander here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-16-2018, 02:03 PM
 
37,792 posts, read 41,479,186 times
Reputation: 27052
Quote:
Originally Posted by _OT View Post
You pretty much just proved my point. lol

Don’t blame me, blame the users who keep referencing neighborhoods like L4W or Sweet Auburn, when I often mention, over and over again that Ensley was an entirely different city with its own economy, developed neighborhoods, and Downtown Area. And as a Birmingham neighborhood now, there’s not really any neighborhoods in Atlanta (especially outside of the core) that structurally compares to Ensley’s layout or urban bones.
Actually you'd be wrong on that point; West End and East Atlanta are two examples. Ensley is built on more of a traditional grid but those two neighborhoods in Atlanta are much farther along in their redevelopment. Only in your mind is Ensley ahead of them.

Quote:
Ensley might look “run down” but at least it has something already to build from. Most of Atlanta’s run down areas would need timely planning just to redevelop the area, or in other terms, start from scratch.
Practically all of Atlanta's neighborhoods with commercial districts have already been redeveloped and have been for years; I can't think of any that haven't been. Even Hapeville is farther along than Ensley.

Ensley doesn't just look "run down", it is run down (the commercial district). Most of Atlanta's run down areas currently are mostly residential like Vine City/English Avenue, Bankhead, etc. and those neighborhoods are already on their way. One area in which Atlanta has kinda sorta "started from scratch" (although there were commercial/industrial buildings in the area) would be West Midtown and that area has been a rousing success and seeing even more development as time goes on.

Birmingham may be underrated for its urban form but these comparisons with Atlanta are non-starters.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-16-2018, 02:05 PM
 
37,792 posts, read 41,479,186 times
Reputation: 27052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle View Post
Confusing me too. Even high growth cities like Raleigh and Durham (outside of downtown) have urban pockets that are seeing a renaissance with great blends of old with the new. I'm not discounting B'hams historic structures, however, urbanity compared to Atlanta...you gotta be kidding me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
Birmingham's a great town, one that has enjoyed a lot of momentum in the past five years. What's more, with its long flat grid in a wide valley, the urban center has the capacity to grow a great deal. For the first 50 years of its existence from 1870 onward, Birmingham was thought to become the next large American city and planned accordingly. Then the Great Depression hit, the Civil Rights Era came, and lots of stupid people made a lot of stupid decisions about the city's future. So Birmingham spent roughly 50 years wandering in the wilderness while others passed it by.

But it's a headscratcher to compare its urban footprint with Atlanta.
Precisely but this is OT's schtick. He's literally the only person who's in this fan club of his.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top