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Honestly, the comparison is with fully grade-separated rails on the one hand, like BART and the Chicago El; and typical light rails on the other, like MAX, VTA, and San Diego that are almost all surface. The size of the trains and stations are also a factor, and how it’s powered, with third rail being common for heavy rail and pantographs for light rail (because third rail is too dangerous for areas where people walk or drive over the track).
Light metro came out of the 1970s renewal of tram technology, the goal was to get some of the benefits of a full metro on a budget, with the expectation that they’d later be converted to heavy rail as the population and demand grew. But many of them ended up performing so well that there was no need to convert them, so that was scrapped and they were expanded to more areas.
Seattle light rail is somewhere in between light rail and light metro. The SODO and MLK segments with the Beacon Hill connecting tunnel are what you’d expect from light rail, and the elevated segment to SeaTac could go either way (because there are several interpretations for it: it was originally planned as surface, it has to cross highways, north Tukwila is an industrial area with no use for stations and the routing would be impractical surface).
But the DSTT and the tunnel to Northgate are definitely like light metro. because there was a conscious decision to reject minimalist surface options and to get it right to neighborhood centers (at least Broadway, U-District, and Roosevelt), where it was hoped that people would rise to the occasion and ride it massively to justify the investment. When the U-Link extension opened somebody said Capitol Hill and UW stations look like “real subway stations” — the kind you’d expect for a heavy-rail subway, not like the dinky stations on south. So that makes it more like light metro.
ST2 Link is almost completely grade-separated and can run at 55 mph throughout, and ST3 probably will too (notwithstanding the Ballard drawbridge: a river bridge that opens four times a day is not like a road crossing that opens ten times an hour). So with ST2 Link will be something like 90% grade separated, and thus look a lot like a light metro.
But that term isn’t really used in the US, especially by the public, so it will still be called light rail, which is unfortunate because it significantly underestimates its accomplishments and risks misunderstanding by people whose experience is typical American light rails, which leads to the claim that it’s “the most expensive light rail country, way too expensive”. Yes but that’s not a fair comparison. Its grade separation and speed make it more effective, which over time should lead to high ridership, and its costs are typical for light metro.
Honestly, the comparison is with fully grade-separated rails on the one hand, like BART and the Chicago El; and typical light rails on the other, like MAX, VTA, and San Diego that are almost all surface. The size of the trains and stations are also a factor, and how it’s powered, with third rail being common for heavy rail and pantographs for light rail (because third rail is too dangerous for areas where people walk or drive over the track).
Light metro came out of the 1970s renewal of tram technology, the goal was to get some of the benefits of a full metro on a budget, with the expectation that they’d later be converted to heavy rail as the population and demand grew. But many of them ended up performing so well that there was no need to convert them, so that was scrapped and they were expanded to more areas.
Seattle light rail is somewhere in between light rail and light metro. The SODO and MLK segments with the Beacon Hill connecting tunnel are what you’d expect from light rail, and the elevated segment to SeaTac could go either way (because there are several interpretations for it: it was originally planned as surface, it has to cross highways, north Tukwila is an industrial area with no use for stations and the routing would be impractical surface).
But the DSTT and the tunnel to Northgate are definitely like light metro. because there was a conscious decision to reject minimalist surface options and to get it right to neighborhood centers (at least Broadway, U-District, and Roosevelt), where it was hoped that people would rise to the occasion and ride it massively to justify the investment. When the U-Link extension opened somebody said Capitol Hill and UW stations look like “real subway stations” — the kind you’d expect for a heavy-rail subway, not like the dinky stations on south. So that makes it more like light metro.
ST2 Link is almost completely grade-separated and can run at 55 mph throughout, and ST3 probably will too (notwithstanding the Ballard drawbridge: a river bridge that opens four times a day is not like a road crossing that opens ten times an hour). So with ST2 Link will be something like 90% grade separated, and thus look a lot like a light metro.
But that term isn’t really used in the US, especially by the public, so it will still be called light rail, which is unfortunate because it significantly underestimates its accomplishments and risks misunderstanding by people whose experience is typical American light rails, which leads to the claim that it’s “the most expensive light rail country, way too expensive”. Yes but that’s not a fair comparison. Its grade separation and speed make it more effective, which over time should lead to high ridership, and its costs are typical for light metro.
ISTR that one of the chief advocacy groups for further expansion of the Sound Transit light metro system calls itself "Seattle Subway."
Their point is that with the system designed the way it is, what Seattle is getting is full-blown rapid transit - a "subway," in other words, no matter what its trains or stations might look like. And as far as I'm concerned, they're right.
Downtown surface routes tend to be very limited by block length. Portland has tiny blocks. Denver's are larger but still limited. San Diego has a similar issue. All of their trains are limited in length. Seattle's can go up to 400' long, which is basically four of the accordion cars. The trains are overly jammed because we only have enough cars for something like a 3-3-2-3-3-2 length sequence during rush hour. These are often too jammed to fit more people at rush hour. More cars arrive in 2019 I believe, and we'll need every bit of that four-car capacity even before the 2021 extension opens.
It’s very accurate in my experience. It’s pretty simple. All you need is a GPS signal and an app (there are many simple speedometer apps out there). I live by an el and I often check my speed on the train whenever I feel like I’m going either exceptionally fast or slow. You can easily verify it next time you’re in a car by cross-checking with the speedometer on the dash.
The only downside is since you need a gps signal, it won’t be able to measure in underground tunnels. You gotta be above ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_Adultman
Honestly, the comparison is with fully grade-separated rails on the one hand, like BART and the Chicago El; and typical light rails on the other, like MAX, VTA, and San Diego that are almost all surface. The size of the trains and stations are also a factor, and how it’s powered, with third rail being common for heavy rail and pantographs for light rail (because third rail is too dangerous for areas where people walk or drive over the track).
Light metro came out of the 1970s renewal of tram technology, the goal was to get some of the benefits of a full metro on a budget, with the expectation that they’d later be converted to heavy rail as the population and demand grew. But many of them ended up performing so well that there was no need to convert them, so that was scrapped and they were expanded to more areas.
I never knew it was possible to convert light rail to heavy rail! That’s really interesting to me. I understand why cities today are opting for the cheaper light rail in place of rapid transit, but I always fear that it might be more of a short term fix and end up limiting long term potential growth.
Are there any examples of a light rail converted into heavy rail in America?
It’s very accurate in my experience. It’s pretty simple. All you need is a GPS signal and an app (there are many simple speedometer apps out there). I live by an el and I often check my speed on the train whenever I feel like I’m going either exceptionally fast or slow. You can easily verify it next time you’re in a car by cross-checking with the speedometer on the dash.
The only downside is since you need a gps signal, it won’t be able to measure in underground tunnels. You gotta be above ground.
I never knew it was possible to convert light rail to heavy rail! That’s really interesting to me. I understand why cities today are opting for the cheaper light rail in place of rapid transit, but I always fear that it might be more of a short term fix and end up limiting long term potential growth.
Are there any examples of a light rail converted into heavy rail in America?
Light metro is different than light rail though. Seattle currently is somewhere between light rail and light metro, but will be closer to light metro once it’s built out. Here are some examples of light metro: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medi...ty_rail_system
Are there any examples of a light rail converted into heavy rail in America?
There are actually two examples, but they're from the First Subway Era, back when there was no "light rail," only streetcars.
The first one is in New York. There, a trolley tunnel under the East River from Long Island City to Manhattan known as the Steinway tunnel was converted in 1917 for use by the new IRT Corona (later Flushing) Line.
The second one involves a tunnel that carried streetcars from East Boston under Boston Harbor into a short subway that ended in a loop around Bowdoin Square with a spur for streetcars continuing on the surface down Cambridge Street. This tunnel, opened in 1904, was converted to a rapid transit line in 1923.
Light metro is different than light rail though. Seattle currently is somewhere between light rail and light metro, but will be closer to light metro once it’s built out. Here are some examples of light metro: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medi...ty_rail_system
Huh. Thanks for the info. Never even knew that “medium” rail was a thing, though I guess it makes sense since the “light” vs. “heavy” names derive from the capacity that they’re able to handle. So it only makes sense for there to be an inbetween. What’s even more interesting is that the only 2 examples in America, Philly and Miami, are the 2 cities I’m most familiar with outside my own! Though Phillys is technically outside of Philly itself in the PA suburbs and whenever I’m in Miami I’m with family that have cars. But I really want to check both of these out as I’m in both cities frequently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
There are actually two examples, but they're from the First Subway Era, back when there was no "light rail," only streetcars.
The first one is in New York. There, a trolley tunnel under the East River from Long Island City to Manhattan known as the Steinway tunnel was converted in 1917 for use by the new IRT Corona (later Flushing) Line.
The second one involves a tunnel that carried streetcars from East Boston under Boston Harbor into a short subway that ended in a loop around Bowdoin Square with a spur for streetcars continuing on the surface down Cambridge Street. This tunnel, opened in 1904, was converted to a rapid transit line in 1923.
Huh (again). Thanks for the info. This I never knew either about the 7 train, and I’m a Queens native! So it looks like it’s been about 100 years almost! Good to know that this is possible to implement if needed.
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