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Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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I lived in San Diego. I could not live in Toronto as I am over cold weather (though it does have some great cultural and true city experience offerings), but I left San Diego because I found the city too unsophisticated and slow for my tastes.
Couple of corrections in order:
1. Natural hazards not a concern?....the city has 3 faults that could cause significant damage--Rose Canyon, Elsinore, and San Jacinto.....wildfires are not a natural hazard and have not caused significant damage in recent years??
2. lots of financial jobs...huh?....there has been an exodus of traditional tech firms to other states in recent years. The region does have healthcare, government/military contractors, biotech/life science jobs and tourism. ..have you read the CDSD board?....most on that board complain about the COL and how their jobs--which pay lower than in LA, OC and SF Bay area--make it difficult to cover the housing nut or have enough leftover afterwards. Much better city to move to after you have made your wealth elsewhere--not known for career/wealth building (fortunately, I moved there with and brought my out of state tech job with the same semiconductor company of more than 30+ years)....OTOH, Toronto is a financial engine.
3. Military = eye candy to a gay man. OK, now I see where you are coming from and why you would like SD...yes, SD had the most noticeable gay population of any city I have ever lived in, including SF. If that is a huge criteria for you, then I could see why SD would be preferable and a great choice for you.
4. May not have the baggage of LA and SF but does not have the cosmopolitan, cultural, culinary, and sophisticated advantages that these world class cities offer, either.
6. Food scene, especially for a city of its size, is very underwhelming. Cannot think of one restaurant I salivate over in anticipation of an upcoming meal--contrast that with restaurants I frequent in NYC, SF, LA, Vegas, NOLA, Seattle or even Portland.
if you want to come up with other things SD has--such as less traffic than LA and SF (not sure about Toronto); less smog than LA, easier to find parking at the beaches, impressive beach coastline, you can bring your dog and wear a tank top with shorts and flip flops into all but a dozen restaurants (not something that appeals to me, but does to plenty of residents), convenient airport (though connections to many other cities still required through larger hubs), requires less effort to get ahead if you have just an ounce of East Coast work ethic, great place to go to college and party or retire, great place to get off the fast track for awhile....then I will grant you that.
That being said, Toronto to San Diego is like comparing grapefruit juice to a tuna sandwich. Nothing whatsoever in common between the 2 cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manitopiaaa
1. The weather is phenomenal (the best in all of North America in my opinion). It's also at a lower earthquake risk than everywhere else in California and gets no hurricanes so natural hazards aren't as big a concern.
2. The quality of life is extremely high, with lots of high-tech, healthcare and financial jobs and very good wages.
3. The city's economy is booming.
4. The La Jolla coastline is gorgeous and the beaches are top-notch with palm trees and an ocean breeze. There's great surfing nearby
5. You have lots of nearby daytrips with stunning scenery: Tijuana, Los Angeles, Coronado, Anza-Borrego State Park, Orange County, Disneyland, Legoland, Temecula Wineries, Palm Springs, Laguna Beach, Torrey Pines State Natural Reserve, Sunset Cliffs Natural Park, Point Loma, Cabrillo National Monument
6. The city has fantastic sights like the San Diego Zoo, Gaslamp Quarter, Balboa Park, USS Midway Museum, Sea World, the Botanical Building and the Lily Pond, the California Tower and the Museum of Man (gorgeous building!)
7. There's a big military presence so lots of muscular eye candy (sorry, as a gay man I had to say this). Miltary men + palm trees + colonial architecture + rainbows + high wage job = Heaven for me.
8. There's a big Mexican population so the food scene is great
9. It has a beach town-meets-corporate hub vibe (similar to Santa Monica), which means you can make bank in the day and live like you're on vacation at night
10. It's more affordable than LA or San Francisco, with none of the baggage that comes from being a big city
11. It has a quirky streak with massive events like Comic-Con happening there.
I think the difference is that San Diego is unique. Atlanta is the capital of the South (which, with 80 million+ people, makes it one of the most important cities in the U.S.). But from a 'living there' perspective, it doesn't feel "special."
Last edited by elchevere; 07-05-2018 at 02:11 PM..
Way to cherry pick. I’ve been to Toronto and you could’ve at least used better examples to make your point for them. I can show examples from San Diego that would blow your mind, but I don’t feel like playing a game of one upmanship.
For the record I think Toronto is the top city in the Great Lake region, on either side of the border, including Chicago. Real cool city, but the weather blows year round, and there’s no ocean, both deal breakers for me. I highly recommend both cities for someone who hasn’t been.
Way to cherry pick. I’ve been to Toronto and you could’ve at least used better examples to make your point for them. I can show examples from San Diego that would blow your mind, but I don’t feel like playing a game of one upmanship.
For the record I think Toronto is the top city in the Great Lake region, on either side of the border, including Chicago. Real cool city, but the weather blows year round, and there’s no ocean, both deal breakers for me. I highly recommend both cities for someone who hasn’t been.
I picked a random street in midtown Toronto and a random street in the nicer parts of San Diego.
Yes I could have gone to Rosedale or Yorkville but that's not the point.
quality of life
economy
nightlife
scenery
daytime activities/events
shopping/entertainment venues
transportation
overall vibe
1. Quality of life: I don't know and I don't speak for entire populations of people at-large. I only speak for myself but the quality of my life would be better in San Diego, as it is a more preferred environment for me.
2. Economy: Let us find out the exact values of both of their economies in both aggregate and then assess on a per capita productivity basis.
San Diego is one of America's Top 3 centers for biotech, one of the Top 3 in nanotech, a massive tech center in general, a massive telecommunications center, a large military and defense center, and decent in most other industries. It is buoyed by being in the United States, which generally has higher per capita production levels than any other large country on Earth and one of the highest in the world in general even when you take size out of the equation. On the other hand is Toronto, which is Canada's financial power, Canada's tech power, Canada's media center, and its region is the heart of Canada's manufacturing sector.
In essence the Toronto CMA GDP has a $89 Billion USD lead on the San Diego MSA, that's in aggregate, however when you account for the Toronto CMA's population coming just barely shy of doubling San Diego MSA's then you have another take at it altogether. San Diego's economy is more productive on a per person basis than is Toronto's and for Toronto to match San Diego's per person productivity its GDP would have to be $435 Billion (roundabout).
I give economy a tie overall. San Diego cant help being smaller and less populated than Toronto but it can help being more productive. The United States and its cities in general have a very good economic system in place, something no other country can match, save for 1-2 small and sparsely populated countries. It is a tie because at the end of the day, Toronto's is still larger in aggregate even though it takes Toronto 3 million more people to pull away from San Diego.
3. Nightlife: San Diego has a few cool night scene areas like the Gaslamp Quarter and Pacific Beach, whereas Toronto has the sheer size, scale, and scope and diversity in this arena. It's nightlife is better balanced with regards to its offerings and that's before factoring in its sheer scale. I give this one to Toronto but it's close, neither city is really a global destination for nightlife or in the case of North America, even a continental destination for nightlife but both cities have enough to keep you entertained.
4. Scenery: San Diego without question. You have the Pacific Ocean, which like all other locations on the Pacific Rim is just absolutely stunning. The scenic areas in San Diego are better kept than those in Los Angeles, less pollution and less congestion, and for whatever reason the vegetation and trees on the mountains of San Diego come across as if they are a good deal bit greener than Los Angeles (Orange County also looks and feels greener than Los Angeles as well), which is good, because green is a superior color to brown with regards to scenery. San Diego has bays, the ocean, the mountains, the lagoons, even some notable lakes. In short, it has it all and in such a tightly condensed amount of space. It is breathtaking seeing mountains come crashing down into the ocean, which is a sight you become accustomed to seeing when you are on the coast of San Diego.
Toronto has a good lakefront on Lake Ontario and to its credit it also has pretty good tree coverage and has relatively hilly terrain. However that is no match for San Diego. If your city isn't Honolulu, Vancouver, Seattle, or San Francisco then chances are that you don't stack up well here.
I mean La Jolla Cove is one of the prettiest places on the North American continent, it's really tough to top something like that.
5. Daytime activities and/or events: Tie. San Diego takes daytime activities and its fine weather allows one to be out during the day unhindered by the ramifications brought forth by weather almost all year long. In contrast, "events" generally would entail that Toronto takes that half of this criteria given that it is the bigger city and readily assuming that it would have more going on just by virtue of being twice the size.
6. Shopping and/or entertainment venues: Toronto. Lets start off with entertainment venues first, Toronto has 4 out of 5 of the Big 5 professional sports leagues with MLB, MLS, NBA, and NHL. In contrast, San Diego now only has one, MLB. Having these sports teams and the venues that accommodate these teams is the reason why Toronto is a guaranteed lock to get some 2026 FIFA World Cup Games when it comes to North America, because the infrastructure is already there. In this regard San Diego is far behind. Also keep in mind a lot of these venues are used year round for other events that aren't sports related like concerts, raves, car shows, boat shows, science symposiums, having these facilities already in place allow Toronto the opportunity to lure more of these events and shows than San Diego can.
Toronto has Y-D Square, whereas San Diego has no answer for it. On the flip side, it appears that San Diego has better theme and amusement parks than Toronto, or at least more well known ones with things like SeaWorld, Legoland, Aquatica, and Belmont.
Moving on to shopping, I know for certain that San Diego's shopping options when compared to other places in the United States that are double its size stacks up rather well as it actually demolishes some places that have nearly twice its population (I can think of a place in the Northeast Corridor that's nearly double its size that pales in comparison to San Diego's offerings). However, Toronto is the shopping center of its country. Every major store and brand that expands into Canada takes a hard look at the Toronto area when expanding and that sort of attention commands a lot deeper lineup of options. I think Toronto takes shopping but San Diego is well stocked itself and like I said in some cases within its own country, it is superior to places twice its size.
7. Transportation: Toronto without a doubt. Toronto has heavy rail, streetcars, commuter rail, and a sturdy roadway system. San Diego has a very nice light rail system and a pretty nice commuter rail system and its roadway system is without a doubt the best in California. However Toronto just takes this on breadth and scale.
8. Overall vibe: Tie. I like the culture and vibe in both cities. Love the diversity in both as well. As an Asian person, I don't really care about being around people like me as much as I care about the food offerings various Asians cultures bring and I can say the exact same for my appreciation for various European, South American, Central American, Mexican, and African foods. Both areas punch the box for me and it is an added bonus that both areas are diverse, it gives me more options on things to do too like seeing a foreign movie, a foreign play, a foreign event, a foreign parade, stuff like that.
I like Toronto but I love San Diego and San Diego would be my personal choice in this comparison. Before I saw San Diego, I didn't like California all that much, after seeing San Diego, California's appeal grew on me. San Diego is my favorite city in California and one of my favorites in all of North America and world for that matter. I like Toronto but its a much tougher sell to me.
In essence the Toronto CMA GDP has a $89 Billion USD lead on the San Diego MSA, that's in aggregate, however when you account for the Toronto CMA's population coming just barely shy of doubling San Diego MSA's then you have another take at it altogether. San Diego's economy is more productive on a per person basis than is Toronto's and for Toronto to match San Diego's per person productivity its GDP would have to be $435 Billion (roundabout).
I'd just like to point out that the population figure you provided is not for the Toronto CMA but for the Greater Toronto Area (circa 2016). The Toronto CMA is smaller and doesn't include the suburban city of Burlington or the Oshawa CMA, which are both included in the GTA.
A more apples to apples comparison would be the San Diego MSA and the Greater Toronto-Hamilton Area (which is still about 1000 sq. miles smaller in land area than the San Diego MSA), so the GDP of the Hamilton CMA (which includes Burlington) and the GDP of the Oshawa CMA would be added to the GDP of the Toronto CMA figure which you quoted.
I'd just like to point out that the population figure you provided is not for the Toronto CMA but for the Greater Toronto Area (circa 2016). The Toronto CMA is smaller and doesn't include the suburban city of Burlington or the Oshawa CMA, which are both included in the GTA.
Got it, thanks for the correction.
I take it that this is the most accurate depiction of the CMA?
A more apples to apples comparison would be the San Diego MSA and the Greater Toronto-Hamilton Area (which is still about 1000 sq. miles smaller in land area than the San Diego MSA), so the GDP of the Hamilton CMA (which includes Burlington) and the GDP of the Oshawa CMA would be added to the GDP of the Toronto CMA figure which you quoted.
I think an apples-to-apples comparison with regards to an ideal metric to use when comparing two places in different countries is Demographia's Urban Area.
I would link Demographia's new 2018 list but it is not permitted under the conditions of this forum's terms of service to link a competitor agency.
I only have two points;
The first is San Diego MSA's land area. Unlike most, if not all other metropolitan areas in the United States, the San Diego MSA is comprised solely of one county, San Diego County. That county is co-terminus with the entirety of the San Diego metropolitan area. Due to the "boxed in" nature of San Diego where it has an international border/fence to its south, the Pacific Ocean to its West, a massive military base to its north, and uninhabitable mountains to its east to go along with uninhabitable desert east of those mountains, the area is pretty condensed and contained by American standards. Along with Honolulu, San Juan, and Miami, probably the most contained places in all of the United States really.
What I am trying to say is that regardless of what the land area of San Diego County is, San Diego only uses 17.4% of that land area as only 17.4% of it is developable and/or developed into its urban expanse. San Diego MSA in 2017 had a population of 3,337,685 people supposedly in "4,207 square miles of land area" if you look at the land area of San Diego County. That may initially look sprawly and bad but its really not when geographic factors and restrictions are weighed in.
In reality, as Demographia's Urban Area pinpoints, San Diego Urban Area's population in 2018 was 3,255,000 people in 735 square miles of land area. Essentially the San Diego Urban Area's population is 97.5% of San Diego MSA's total population and in a fraction of the land area of all of San Diego County.
Here's a three-dimensional visual that will illustrate my point better:
In essence, 98% of San Diego's population lives in a contiguous 735 square miles of land area total. I understand that compared to Toronto that this is lower density and more sprawly, I get that, however, this is pretty good, great actually for an American city.
The second point that I wanted to note was with regards to economy. I understand that if you add in the areas of the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area that it likely pulls away even further from San Diego MSA. I would still stand by my earlier statement however that economy is a tie as Toronto takes GDP on total aggregate while San Diego still takes it on a per capita basis. I think both factors are important to look at, especially because of the population gap between the two places. If it came down to a push versus shove situation where I simply had to pick one over the other on economy then I suppose I would go with Toronto because it is the economic force of its country and because in total aggregate amount it wins.
However, ideally I see it as more of a toss up honestly. San Diego has a large and productive economy, not just for its size but in general. It has done well to invest in lucrative industries that will keep the city relevant going forward, I think that's a commendable trait.
If you are an outdoorsy type who likes a warm climate, beaches, and outdoor year-round activities then SD has Toronto beat by a country mile. If however you are an urbanite who loves theatre, music, nightlife, restaurants, big city vibe, a cosmopolitan mecca, museums, galleries, shopping, and endless festivals and cultural events then Toronto wins by a country mile.
They really are polar opposites of cities so it`s not like comparing SD to LA or Chicago to Toronto. In comparing SD and Toronto it really does depend on your personal interests, lifestyle, and what you want out of your city.
If you are an outdoorsy type who likes a warm climate, beaches, and outdoor year-round activities then SD has Toronto beat by a country mile. If however you are an urbanite who loves theatre, music, nightlife, restaurants, big city vibe, a cosmopolitan mecca, museums, galleries, shopping, and endless festivals and cultural events then Toronto wins by a country mile.
They really are polar opposites of cities so it`s not like comparing SD to LA or Chicago to Toronto. In comparing SD and Toronto it really does depend on your personal interests, lifestyle, and what you want out of your city.
I especially love the part where you just kept on listing and listing things for Toronto but only after mentioning one thing that you personally believe San Diego to have on Toronto.
Needless to say, you can get top shelf food/restaurants, art galleries (La Jolla anyone?), shopping, a cosmopolitan vibe, and "endless festivals and cultural events" in San Diego too. San Diego being a coastal city actually has its own cuisine style that is unique to only California, does Toronto have a style unique to it? That's a real question. In addition to that, San Diego is hella diverse, has the culinary elements in place from every Asian and Latin American country it draws an influence from (as well as other points on the planet), in that regard it is much like Toronto on food.
In fact, you can get first class attributes in all of those things you went on to list for Toronto in San Diego too. Toronto like San Diego has museums, none of which it is world famous for. Lets keep it 100, neither of these cities have museums like the Smithsonian, the Met, the Louvre, the British Museum, the Acropolis, and the like. That tidbit likely doesn't take away from the fact that both probably have solid museums anyways that people can enjoy and spend time experiencing. So who is to say that Toronto's are better than San Diego's? Same thing likely goes for theaters.
The only actual thing you listed that Toronto even definitively has on San Diego is the so called "big city vibe" and quite frankly that's it from the list you posted. San Diego is big enough to where it can give you that in concentrated spots but obviously logic dictates that a much bigger, much more dense, much more hectic city like Toronto would have more of it.
Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 07-09-2018 at 02:48 PM..
In fact, you can get first class attributes in all of those things you went on to list for Toronto in San Diego too.
He didn't say San Diego doesn't have them, what he said is Toronto wins in those categories by a country mile. I agree.
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