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If you expand Cleveland out to 217 sq miles it only has ~850,000 people which is less than Columbus.
I responded to a similar claim you made in another thread a couple weeks ago, but your last sentence is wrong. Cleveland can get to more than 960,000 in 217 square miles with all it being contagious municipalities either on, or directly connected to, the city's numbered street system.
Cleveland can get to 1 million in 236 square miles; when adding Columbus' enclave suburbs, it is at 963,000 in 237 square miles, so both about equal there.
I'm guessing Atlanta would not be able to hit a contiguous 1 million in less land area than either Cleveland or Columbus.
With that, having lived a year in Atlanta (Clayton County), the massive skyline, traffic and endless sprawl definitely makes it easy to tell that population wise, it's much larger. Personally, and part of it was probably where I lived (which wasn't exactly a sought after part of town), but I despised Atlanta. Definitely a city where bigger doesn't make better.
I responded to a similar claim you made in another thread a couple weeks ago, but your last sentence is wrong. Cleveland can get to more than 960,000 in 217 square miles with all it being contagious municipalities either on, or directly connected to, the city's numbered street system.
Cleveland can get to 1 million in 236 square miles; when adding Columbus' enclave suburbs, it is at 963,000 in 237 square miles, so both about equal there.
I'm guessing Atlanta would not be able to hit a contiguous 1 million in less land area than either Cleveland or Columbus.
With that, having lived a year in Atlanta (Clayton County), the massive skyline, traffic and endless sprawl definitely makes it easy to tell that population wise, it's much larger. Personally, and part of it was probably where I lived (which wasn't exactly a sought after part of town), but I despised Atlanta. Definitely a city where bigger doesn't make better.
I curious how you did that. I started with Cuyahoga County and subtracted the least dense towns provided that they were contiguous with either the border of the county or a town I had already subtracted.
I though that was fair even though it might not be the most effiecient boundaries density wise neither is Columbus or Atlanta City limits. But regardless Cleveland and Columbus are very similar sized cities.
How many times have you or you’re Cleveland Posse said “But Northeast Ohio has 4.6 million people so Cleveland is actually bigger than XYZ”
Why is Cleveland considered a Gamma + world city? I don't think the Globalization and World Cities Research Network is a bunch of Cleveland homers.
It's pretty simple:
1. Cleveland alone: 2-plus million
2. Cleveland-Akron metro (not officially designated, yet): 2.7-plus million
3. Cleveland-Akron-Canton area (not officially designated as a metro, though all three are very inter-connected and within 60 miles of each other): 3.1 to 3.4 million, depending on if you include some peripheral counties (which most metros do).
4. Northeast Ohio (a pretty defined region that has two separate metros within it ... Cleveland-Akron-Canton and then Youngstown-Warren): 4 to 4.5 million depending on which outer counties are considered NEO. At its most broad definition, NEO is about 8,500 square miles, which is similar to the land areas of the St. Louis and Minneapolis MSAs.
And yes, Cleveland is the defacto capital of Northeast Ohio. Akron, Canton and Youngstown have some drawing points, but the bulk of the regional attractions, especially culturally and entertainment, are in Cleveland/Cuyahoga County.
I curious how you did that. I started with Cuyahoga County and subtracted the least dense towns provided that they were contiguous with either the border of the county or a town I had already subtracted.
I though that was fair even though it might not be the most effiecient boundaries density wise neither is Columbus or Atlanta City limits. But regardless Cleveland and Columbus are very similar sized cities.
I subtracted all the border cities of the Cuyahoga County, outside Bay Village, since Cleveland historically grew along the lake. Then took out Independence, Valley View and Cuyahoga Heights since those areas are essentially the Cuyahoga Valley.
Then I added the northern Lake County communities of Willowick, Wickliffe and Eastlake (and two tiny communities Timberlake and Lakeline since they are enclaves of Eastlake). Those areas are still on the city's numbered street grids ... think it goes out to E. 360th in Eastlake.)
I have the exact numbers on a spreadsheet, but it basically subtracts about 300,000 from Cuyahoga and hundreds of square miles and adds 50,000 from Lake County (in about 13 square miles).
Why is Cleveland considered a Gamma + world city? I don't think the Globalization and World Cities Research Network is a bunch of Cleveland homers.
It's pretty simple:
1. Cleveland alone: 2-plus million
2. Cleveland-Akron metro (not officially designated, yet): 2.7-plus million
3. Cleveland-Akron-Canton area (not officially designated as a metro, though all three are very inter-connected and within 60 miles of each other): 3.1 to 3.4 million, depending on if you include some peripheral counties (which most metros do).
4. Northeast Ohio (a pretty defined region that has two separate metros within it ... Cleveland-Akron-Canton and then Youngstown-Warren): 4 to 4.5 million depending on which outer counties are considered NEO. At its most broad definition, NEO is about 8,500 square miles, which is similar to the land areas of the St. Louis and Minneapolis MSAs.
And yes, Cleveland is the defacto capital of Northeast Ohio. Akron, Canton and Youngstown have some drawing points, but the bulk of the regional attractions, especially culturally and entertainment, are in Cleveland/Cuyahoga County.
metros of +/- 2.1 Million, Columbus, Austin, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis
metros +/- 4.5 million Detroit, San Francisco, Boston, Phoenix
metros +/- 3.5 million Twin Cities, Seattle, Tampa-St Pete
Okay, it's been a while, I'll jump into the fray. Here's my take on which city has an 'in town bigger city feel'
Most will instantly recognize me as an ardent supporter of Cleveland. Cleveland is my home, it is the city that still maintains a very strong hold upon my heart. I've seen the city at it's worst and now taking a definite trajectory towards it's BEST times ahead.
Having spent a fair amount of time in Atlanta, I would have to say that my opinion is that ATL has a larger 'feel' to it than in-town Cleveland. I attribute this to the fact that (as many have correctly pointed out) Atlanta is a much more fast developing city than is Cleveland.
Having said that, for those who may not have been to Cleveland in recent years, you might be genuinely surprised by the level of NEW construction projects in and near the city center. Cleveland is far from being a slouch when it comes to having a BIG CITY PRESENCE or feel. Outside developers are becoming quite bullish in fact.
Cleveland has a very vibrant feel to it, particularly in the burgeoning central core, as well as in other areas that are experiencing high levels of development and redevelopment.
People who are often misguided by preconceived notions about Cleveland are very often shocked and quite pleasantly surprised to find a metropolis that has sooooooooo many World-Class amenities, iconic cultural refinements, spacious suburbs, a much heralded and fantastic dining scene, as well as a very beautiful natural setting along the southern shore of Lake Erie.
Downtown Cleveland is experiencing a very robust level of population growth (closing in on 20,000 residents) and there are several high rise towers currently under construction, including the 34-story LUMEN at Playhouse Square.
On a side note: I feel it is unfortunate that the plethora of unabated Cleveland bashing has been perpetually allowed to permeate these various forums. It is one reason that I have chosen to be absent for lengthy periods from City-Data. Cleveland's fans deserve as much of a VOICE as the city's legions of detractors.
Every person on the site thinks that their city is the Best in some way or another, so why aren't Clevelander's and supporters of the city not given the same privileges as others.
Just my two cents ....
Last edited by JohnDBaumgardner; 05-13-2019 at 10:20 PM..
Okay, it's been a while, I'll jump into the fray. Here's my take on which city has an 'in town bigger city feel'
Most will instantly recognize me as an ardent supporter of Cleveland. Cleveland is my home, it is the city that still maintains a very strong hold upon my heart. I've seen the city at it's worst and now taking a definite trajectory towards it's BEST times ahead.
Having spent a fair amount of time in Atlanta, I would have to say that my opinion is that ATL has a larger 'feel' to it than in-town Cleveland. I attribute this to the fact that (as many have correctly pointed out) Atlanta is a much more fast developing city than is Cleveland.
Having said that, for those who may not have been to Cleveland in recent years, you might be genuinely surprised by the level of NEW construction projects in and near the city center. Cleveland is far from being a slouch when it comes to having a BIG CITY PRESENCE or feel. Outside developers are becoming quite bullish in fact.
Cleveland has a very vibrant feel to it, particularly in the burgeoning central core, as well as in other areas that are experiencing high levels of development and redevelopment.
People who are often misguided by preconceived notions about Cleveland are very often shocked and quite pleasantly surprised to find a metropolis that has sooooooooo many World-Class amenities, iconic cultural refinements, spacious suburbs, a much heralded and fantastic dining scene, as well as a very beautiful natural setting along the southern shore of Lake Erie.
Downtown Cleveland is experiencing a very robust level of population growth (closing in on 20,000 residents) and there are several high rise towers currently under construction, including the 34-story LUMEN at Playhouse Square.
On a side note: I feel it is unfortunate that the plethora of unabated Cleveland bashing has been perpetually allowed to permeate these various forums. It is one reason that I have chosen to be absent for lengthy periods from City-Data. Cleveland's fans deserve as much of a VOICE as the city's legions of detractors.
Every person on the site thinks that their city is the Best in some way or another, so why aren't Clevelander's and supporters of the city not given the same privileges as others.
metros of +/- 2.1 Million, Columbus, Austin, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis
metros +/- 4.5 million Detroit, San Francisco, Boston, Phoenix
metros +/- 3.5 million Twin Cities, Seattle, Tampa-St Pete
which seems the most Cleveland's class?
Yeah, Cleveland is on par with Cincinnati and Columbus, not those larger cities. People who pull out the NEO statistics make me laugh. It's an absolutely huge area. You might as well add Pittsburgh to it, too.
Let's look at Urban Areas. 2010 (density psm)
Atlanta: 4,515,419 (1,707)
Cleveland: 1,780,673 (2,307)
Columbus: 1,368,035 (2,680)
Now, if % of MSA remains the same (I'd argue it's only increased in today's development direction):
Atlanta: 5,081,881
Cleveland: 1,763,330
Columbus: 1,515,174
Atlanta and Cleveland were at about 85% of MSA is Urban Area. Speaks to their urban, big city feeling. Columbus was only at 72%. I'd argue Columbus will make larger gains in percentage here. And if at 80% now (not unreasonable to me) Columbus would be 1,685,233.
Every person on the site thinks that their city is the Best in some way or another, so why aren't Clevelander's and supporters of the city not given the same privileges as others.
Just my two cents ....
What privileges do others have that Clevelanders don't?
What privileges do others have that Clevelanders don't?
I think he means is that, oftentimes when Cleveland folks tout their city, they get attacked by the haters as being arrogant. It's a wacko cycle. People like me don't put down other cities because Cleveland has been put down and joked about for decades and, as I've said, there's something good about ALL cities. Some of us just want Cleveland to be dealt a fair hand in these conversations. Yes we know the city has its weaknesses, but it also has considerable strengths which, to often, get brushed aside and/or overlooked.
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