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You're the only person mentioning Roswell and these suburban areas, it's like you're trying to change the narrative of your own thread. You said you were talking about city limits only...
Regardless, my point about peak hours on MARTA and your subsequent reply to that illustrates the fatal flaw in this thread from jump. A city's population and most associated factors aren't limited to the arbitrary limits of a city. Your premise is simplistic, and your analogous correlations to other cities aren't relevant here. You asked which city feels more vibrant or feels busier. The answer is Atlanta and it isn't close...
All true...
Population density certainly can't be the only characteristic for which to make your case, that's for sure...
You sound upset that you aren't getting the answers you want, which strengthens the feeling this was a troll thread. Downtown Pittsburgh is very vibrant and has a hustle and bustle to it becoming of a larger city, but it wouldn't be accurate to say it feels larger than Atlanta and I'm not sure anyone would make that argument; instead they'd highlight the aesthetic differences between the two and why Pittsburgh may be more appealing. But I'm not sure anyone without an agenda would say Pittsburgh feels larger than Atlanta...
I’m clearly not hurt, the Internet doesn’t convey emotion very well. I’m an Atlantan, I’m not rooting for Cleveland, I was genuinely curious because in my years on this forum people have made cases for much smaller metros having the same or more vibrant feel intown than Atlanta (Seattle, Pitt, New Orleans, etc)
I didn’t bring up the suburbs Randomly. Sandy Springs/Dunwoody is where a lot of Marta traffic goes... it’s our biggest office district if I’m not mistaken. You are so thirsty to call it a troll thread you missed that.
Atlanta can have a more built out city proper core, but that alone doesn’t translate to big city feel. Outside of midtown and few spots in East Atlanta, these CBDs fizzle down close shop after the workers leave? Fairlie poplar area has restaraunts that barely open on the weekend.
So yeah, daytime population for the work week probably goes to Atlanta off sheer numbers, but I’m
curious to hear from Cleveland folk who have spent time in both or Vice versa. Thanks for your input btw.
Huh? That’s the whole reason we look at population densities. Different cities are arbitrarily different sizes by virtue of differing land sizes, residential Pop density is one metric to use to get a more accurate depiction of city’s health.
And that metric can be wildly as skewed and invalid as looking at a cities population and determining which is larger.
Some, lots of cities, are consolidated city/county governments. Some cities grabbed a lot of land to control growth. Some cities were in states that restricted such annexation. Some cities include a lot of water in their city limits. Seattle has 58 sq. Miles of water and around 80 of land.
Nashville, as an example, has a population density of 1,300. Nearly 1/2 the density of Charlotte. Charlotte is nearly 2x larger than Atlanta based on population.
Charlotte and Atlanta are more dense than New Orleans. Atlanta being much more dense than NoLa.
My point is. You can’t just look at a cities population density numbers or just look at the population, etc. and have a clear cut answer. You could easily spin the narrative if you wanted like I could Charlotte is more dense than NoLa. That statistic isn’t perfect. By any means.
Indianápolis has a a lower density than ATL/CLT.
Miami is more dense than Philly.
Etc etc
Not saying ATL is a density king. I’m just saying. I don’t think we should look at Nashville’s 500+ sq. Miles and come to the conclusion it’s an extremely low density city without having some context.
Maybe you can be the one to champion how Atlanta is much more dense than NoLa, but I’m not going to particularly agree.
You can’t really say Pittsburgh area is more dense than Atlanta’s core. Atlanta’s core is so much larger and probably much more dense. Atlanta’s not that dense for a metro its size, but come on... Pittsburgh is not more dense on reality than Atlanta if we were to shrink ATL down to 55 sq. Miles.
Atlanta gets unfairly pummeled for being a large sprawling metro but not enough cred. For having a large urban core
Last edited by Charlotte485; 05-12-2019 at 11:30 AM..
I’m clearly not hurt, the Internet doesn’t convey emotion very well. I’m an Atlantan, I’m not rooting for Cleveland, I was genuinely curious because in my years on this forum people have made cases for much smaller metros having the same or more vibrant feel intown than Atlanta (Seattle, Pitt, New Orleans, etc)
I didn’t bring up the suburbs Randomly. Sandy Springs/Dunwoody is where a lot of Marta traffic goes... it’s our biggest office district if I’m not mistaken. You are so thirsty to call it a troll thread you missed that.
Atlanta can have a more built out city proper core, but that alone doesn’t translate to big city feel. Outside of midtown and few spots in East Atlanta, these CBDs fizzle down close shop after the workers leave? Fairlie poplar area has restaraunts that barely open on the weekend.
So yeah, daytime population for the work week probably goes to Atlanta off sheer numbers, but I’m
curious to hear from Cleveland folk who have spent time in both or Vice versa. Thanks for your input btw.
To the bolded, while that may be true that people have made those statements, this site is notorious for blanket statements and over generalizations...
You're completely missing my counterpoint to your suburban district mention, which is that your OP that stated you wanted a measurement of "city only" feel was off target anyway. The people who ride RTA and MARTA aren't just the residents if the actual city, and not just transit, there are plenty of things we can talk about for not just these two cities, but any city, that establish easily that more than just the city residents contribute to the city's aesthetics and personality...
You've changed the topic of your OP and it still doesn't favor Cleveland. At any given moment, at any time of day, during any point of the year, there are more people within Atlanta than Cleveland, and those people directly contribute to the vast margin in amount of things to do between the two...
To the bolded, while that may be true that people have made those statements, this site is notorious for blanket statements and over generalizations...
You're completely missing my counterpoint to your suburban district mention, which is that your OP that stated you wanted a measurement of "city only" feel was off target anyway. The people who ride RTA and MARTA aren't just the residents if the actual city, and not just transit, there are plenty of things we can talk about for not just these two cities, but any city, that establish easily that more than just the city residents contribute to the city's aesthetics and personality...
You've changed the topic of your OP and it still doesn't favor Cleveland. At any given moment, at any time of day, during any point of the year, there are more people within Atlanta than Cleveland, and those people directly contribute to the vast margin in amount of things to do between the two...
Someone said Atlanta has much more ridership for Marta than Cleveland for RTA, I’m just pointing out a significant amount of that happens outside of Atlanta proper. I don’t see how that is switching anything? That’s literally it. I get your counter too that Cleveland isn’t just city dwellers using their transit as well, but does Cleveland have an edge city like perimeter that detracts from its DT in relative terms?
And that metric can be wildly as skewed and invalid as looking at a cities population and determining which is larger.
Some, lots of cities, are consolidated city/county governments. Some cities grabbed a lot of land to control growth. Some cities were in states that restricted such annexation. Some cities include a lot of water in their city limits. Seattle has 58 sq. Miles of water and around 80 of land.
Nashville, as an example, has a population density of 1,300. Nearly 1/2 the density of Charlotte. Charlotte is nearly 2x larger than Atlanta based on population.
Charlotte and Atlanta are more dense than New Orleans. Atlanta being much more dense than NoLa.
My point is. You can’t just look at a cities population density numbers or just look at the population, etc. and have a clear cut answer. You could easily spin the narrative if you wanted like I could Charlotte is more dense than NoLa. That statistic isn’t perfect. By any means.
Indianápolis has a a lower density than ATL/CLT.
Miami is more dense than Philly.
Etc etc
Not saying ATL is a density king. I’m just saying. I don’t think we should look at Nashville’s 500+ sq. Miles and come to the conclusion it’s an extremely low density city without having some context.
Maybe you can be the one to champion how Atlanta is much more dense than NoLa, but I’m not going to particularly agree.
I don’t want to derail the thread, but I get most of that. I think Nashville is a unique case, but that’s for another day.
To the bolded, while that may be true that people have made those statements, this site is notorious for blanket statements and over generalizations...
You're completely missing my counterpoint to your suburban district mention, which is that your OP that stated you wanted a measurement of "city only" feel was off target anyway. The people who ride RTA and MARTA aren't just the residents if the actual city, and not just transit, there are plenty of things we can talk about for not just these two cities, but any city, that establish easily that more than just the city residents contribute to the city's aesthetics and personality...
You've changed the topic of your OP and it still doesn't favor Cleveland. At any given moment, at any time of day, during any point of the year, there are more people within Atlanta than Cleveland, and those people directly contribute to the vast margin in amount of things to do between the two...
Also NOLA is pretty unique in that about 1/2 of the city is uninhabited Swamp/Marshland. In reality New Orleans has about 80 sq miles of land.
I didn’t bring up the suburbs Randomly. Sandy Springs/Dunwoody is where a lot of Marta traffic goes... it’s our biggest office district if I’m not mistaken. You are so thirsty to call it a troll thread you missed that.
I think you are mistaken. Downtown, Midtown and Buckhead are all larger business districts than Sandy Springs/Dunwoody (Perimeter). It is probably the largest after those three followed by the Cumberland area.
I think you are mistaken. Downtown, Midtown and Buckhead are all larger business districts than Sandy Springs/Dunwoody (Perimeter). It is probably the largest after those three followed by the Cumberland area.
By office districts, I meant office space (this often correlates to the amount of commuters an area has), perimeter has 29k square ft. of office space and downtown 26k if I’m not mistaken. I know totality of Downtown is bigger than perimeter, but that wasn’t relevant to that particular point.
There is no case for Cleveland. The problem with the direction of this comparison is it assumes that there is no added characteristics of urbanity besides the population density in city. Atlanta's daytime population (and quite frankly, nighttime as well) is so much larger than Cleveland's because its tourism is much larger, there are more people in suburban Atlsnta than suburban Cleveland, and there are a much greater amount of attractions and places to go in Atlanta than in Cleveland...
Nonsense. Name me all those 'things to do' in Atlanta, and I can not only match, but exceed your list. Atlanta doesn't have the cultural force as Cleveland; doesn't have a major body of water with restaurant, museum and water sports and other activities, esp along the Cuyahoga River in the Flats (yeah, the Lakefront has overall sucked haven been industrialized for so long, but even that is beginning to change, esp around North Coast Harbor downtown near the Rock & Roll HOF). If you like endless sprawl-burbs, shopping malls and strip shopping forever, sure, Metro Atlanta has got way more of that than Cleveland -- though Cleveland certainly has its share...
Downtown Cleveland is considerably more vibrant than downtown Atlanta -- and don't give me Midtown, because that's not downtown Atlanta. There is more quality, high-end shopping within Atlanta, esp when you consider Buckhead, with its many swanky shops. But Buckhead is very suburban in nature, as is much of Atlanta compared to an old, traditional industrial city such as Cleveland.
As for Atlanta Midtown, I'll agree: it's hot. It's got a lot of eye-candy high-rise apts/condos and even a street presence along Peachtree/Piedmont streets that downtown Atlanta lacks. Cleveland does not have nearly the density and quality of high-rise apts Atlanta has; I'll give you that. Cleveland's more of a traditional house city with some small walk-up brick buildings (and even a few old row/terrace apts thrown in). But it's more neighborhood-y than Atlanta, overall.
Atlanta has leveraged its location as more or less the 'capital of the South' with huge hotels and convention facilities. Is it an accident that Atlanta-Hartsfield Int. Airport is the busiest in the nation, surpassing Chicago O'Hare decades ago?
Clearly Atlanta is more of a destination city than Cleveland, which has not only shrunk by 2/3rds in 60 years, but is also surrounded by a bunch of major cities within a couple hours drive (Detroit, Pittsburgh, Columbus, … even Chicago's barely 5-hours drive - yeah, the number 3 city in the nation (which still feels like number 2 behind only NYC).
Metro Atlanta is sprawling: it has nearly 6 Million people whereas Cleveland is around 2.1 or 2.6 million -- depending on whether you count nearby Summit County (Akron's home) or not... But that doesn't mean Atlanta's quality of its 'urban' experience surpasses, or even reaches, Cleveland's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
I've ridden both RTA and MARTA in both peak and off peak hours and there is no reason to mince words here, there is a substantial difference in experience...
No question. MARTA is a robust heavy-rail rapid transit network and is considerably larger, mileage wise, compared to Cleveland's RTA: about 47 total miles to about 33, for Cleveland... Cleveland has one heavy rail (HRT) line, the Red Line, of just over 19 miles and a 15.5 mile LRT system: total ridership about 40K per day, which is dwarfed by MARTA's daily ridership somewhere north of 200K per day. But while MARTA does a nice job mostly within the perimeter beltway system around Atlanta city, it falls considerably short of reaching Atlanta's monster suburban mass beyond the perimeter.
Cleveland's rail system does reasonably well, esp compared to more traditional old industrial norther cities its more similar to: Milwaukee, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, KC and even much larger Detroit. Atlanta's traditional core grid doesn't stretch out much further, from 5-points, than 2 or 3 miles. Areas like Virginia Highlands and Inman Park are traditional neighborhoods that are similar to Cleveland. Beyond that, Atlanta is largely a suburban-type cul-de-sac city that has blown up big in the post-industrial freeway era. By the time MARTA rail first opened in 1979, the area's population was already exploding beyond its reach... To be sure, Cleveland has considerable freeway-induced sprawl, also, but nowhere near what Atlanta has...
… both Atlanta and Cleveland could really use commuter rail. Cleveland had some until the 1970s when cars, freeways and cheap gas were the thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock
And Mutiny, you know I'm not an Atlanta guy. I can't really stand Atlanta, Cleveland is more tolerable as a place, but for the question asked and the topic of this thread, this is very much a blowout in Atlanta's favor...
Again, what's your definition of 'urbanity'? Atlanta has Cleveland beat in terms of mass suburban-ity, for sure. But in criteria that many travelers and pundits consider: culture/cultural sophistication, quality of living, more things to do and a greater diversity of such things, Cleveland matches and outpaces Atlanta in my mind despite the decided edge Atlanta has, size-wise. And look at quality architecture, alone. Does Atlanta have an Arcade? A Severance concert hall? A Cleveland Museum of Art equivalent? A Tower City complex? Hell, does it even have a Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame? Where's Atlanta's University Circle? Does Buckhead even compare with a Shaker Heights? or Cleveland Heights? or Lakewood? or Hunting Valley? or Bratenahl? … or Chagrin Falls? … or (fill in the blank)?
Last edited by TheProf; 05-12-2019 at 02:35 PM..
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