Atlanta vs Houston vs Dallas, Which City will be more urban at the end of the decade? (live, best)
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Houston has a bigger core than Atlanta but Atlanta has a better core imo. Id say Atlanta has more “very walkable” neighborhoods than Houston but Houston has more “decently walkable” neighborhoods that cover a larger area.
Either way I’ll stick with my answer from before that Atlanta will still be ahead but not by much.
I believe the Design District wasn’t mentioned in this thread. That’s another area that is growing too. Recently, a two tower residential project called the Urby Design District has completed its first phase. Phase two of that project has started. That project is also on the Hi-Line Connector Trail (apart of the Loop) which will connect to the Katy Trail in Victory Park (adjacent to that neighborhood). It’s across the street from to Virgin Hotel completed not too long ago.
Atlanta's downtown is over 4 square miles, its midtown is also nearly 4 square miles. Houston's downtown is less than 2 square miles and it's midtown is barely over a square mile. Dallas has the smallest core as its downtown is only 1.4 square miles and the midtown is .7 square miles. I've been through all three of these areas a few times and confirm that Atlanta's core is much larger than both of Texas cities.
This is just a nitpick but Downtown Atlanta doesn’t really feel bigger than Downtown Houston and its physical size is kind of misleading since Atlanta seems a little more liberal with deciding what is considered “Downtown”. I mean SoNo gets considered as a part of Downtown Atlanta even though it is separated by god knows how many lanes of the downtown connector. Then there’s a bunch of garden style suburban apartments north of Ivan Allen Jr Blvd and south of North Ave that inflate the area of what is considered “Downtown.” There’s more areas in “Downtown Atlanta” that don’t really contribute to the urban fabric of downtown yet are considered downtown as well. None of these would be considered as a part of Downtown Houston or Dallas. I mean by this definition Downtown Atlanta is about the same size as Downtown Chicago, but when being in both it doesn’t really feel that way and it wouldn’t be right to say Atlanta’s core is the size of Chicago’s.
And also Downtown (or Downtown + Midtown) isn’t really synonymous with “core.”
This is just a nitpick but Downtown Atlanta doesn’t really feel bigger than Downtown Houston and its physical size is kind of misleading since Atlanta seems a little more liberal with deciding what is considered “Downtown”. I mean SoNo gets considered as a part of Downtown Atlanta even though it is separated by god knows how many lanes of the downtown connector. Then there’s a bunch of garden style suburban apartments north of Ivan Allen Jr Blvd and south of North Ave that inflate the area of what is considered “Downtown.” There’s more areas in “Downtown Atlanta” that don’t really contribute to the urban fabric of downtown yet are considered downtown as well. None of these would be considered as a part of Downtown Houston or Dallas. I mean by this definition Downtown Atlanta is about the same size as Downtown Chicago, but when being in both it doesn’t really feel that way and it wouldn’t be right to say Atlanta’s core is the size of Chicago’s.
And also Downtown (or Downtown + Midtown) isn’t really synonymous with “core.”
Downtown has always stretched to North Ave before the freeways existed. All that empty land you see is going to be developed. SONO (nobody really uses this name anymore either) is already building up and development will only snowball as available Midtown land dries up.
Downtown has always stretched to North Ave before the freeways existed. All that empty land you see is going to be developed. SONO (nobody really uses this name anymore either) is already building up and development will only snowball as available Midtown land dries up.
Fair enough but I still find it problematic that the post I replied to is using the size the CBDs as a reflection of the size of the cores of the cites. That would mean Atlanta’s core is the size of Chicago’s but that’s just not true.
This is just a nitpick but Downtown Atlanta doesn’t really feel bigger than Downtown Houston and its physical size is kind of misleading since Atlanta seems a little more liberal with deciding what is considered “Downtown”. I mean SoNo gets considered as a part of Downtown Atlanta even though it is separated by god knows how many lanes of the downtown connector. Then there’s a bunch of garden style suburban apartments north of Ivan Allen Jr Blvd and south of North Ave that inflate the area of what is considered “Downtown.” There’s more areas in “Downtown Atlanta” that don’t really contribute to the urban fabric of downtown yet are considered downtown as well. None of these would be considered as a part of Downtown Houston or Dallas. I mean by this definition Downtown Atlanta is about the same size as Downtown Chicago, but when being in both it doesn’t really feel that way and it wouldn’t be right to say Atlanta’s core is the size of Chicago’s.
And also Downtown (or Downtown + Midtown) isn’t really synonymous with “core.”
I'm not so sure Atlanta is being liberal with determining the size of downtown; instead its just the size. Again, I'm simply comparing the two districts in the heart of both cities. When people say Houston is 630 plus square miles, I don't say "Well, if Atlanta included Sandy Springs, Decatur, Alpharetta..etc"...No, the numbers are the numbers, plus I'm not saying Atlanta is more urban as the cities expand out as I've already said Houston's the more urban metro. However, just looking at the heart of the cities, Atlanta's core is larger and more urban.
Also, many people like to think density and urban is synonymous on here for whatever reason and that's simply not the case. Of course, I'm not saying Atlanta's downtown is as urban as Chicago. I'm not even going to dive into that.
A lot of what is considered downtown Atlanta isn't what I would consider downtown.
If you are giving downtown Atlanta and Midtown Atlanta 4sq miles each you would have to include East downtown Houston, West Downtown, Midtown, Montrose, Upper Kirby, Museum District and TMC for Houston.
Houston's core is the original Red Line Rail corridor. Correct me if I'm wrong but that was about an 8 mile stretch which extended about 4 miles on either side. So Houston's core works easily be over 30 sq miles. Atlanta just doesn't have that cohesive development for as sustained a distance.
As mention before in Atlanta was the bigger and denser city early on. In 1920 Atlanta had 200k in 26 sq mi, Houston had 138,276 in 36.5 sq mi. So Atlanta had bigger historic boundaries consider Downtown than Houston did. Also in 1950 Atlanta was 302,288 in 34.7 with Houston being 384,514 in 72.8. Atlanta core was overtly denser. Dallas and Houston didn't actually surpass Atlanta core until the 60/70s ish. By this time was huge change with urban renewal and more suburban like developments. Dallas and Houston have a lot more suburban like Apartments around it's core. This is why Atlanta feels more traditional urban even with Dallas and Houston having a higher population now..
Midtown is not Downtown but they basically connected as one it's only throw identity they are separate.
Atlanta does have a long core, but no way, no how it is bigger than Houston's. Houston's core has a lot more depth than Atlanta's. Atlanta is just a few blocks in either side of one spine. Houston has neighborhoods on either side of the spine, not just a few blocks
One thing I notice also people don't realize the width of Midtown, They see the distance wide shots assume it's just long. Midtown can revival some cities Downtown in the 1 to 3 million range.
This goes back to what I was saying I view in and along the Beltline loop as Atlanta core. Areas like West Midtown and O4W aren't in itself connect to Downtown/midtown but they are still in the general area, it's not like Buckhead CBD. In 10 to 20 years these area can effect the skyline depending on the shots.
Anyways I view Atlanta has an advantage around it's core, Dallas and Houston basically advantage for urbanity outside their core. Central Atlanta is going to look like a more sprawled baby Chicago while Dallas and Houston clearly take after LA more.
Fair enough but I still find it problematic that the post I replied to is using the size the CBDs as a reflection of the size of the cores of the cites. That would mean Atlanta’s core is the size of Chicago’s but that’s just not true.
This is what I'm saying. Seems a few people are stating the urban cores as being strictly what the city determines as the downtown. that is not how to look at what a city's current urban core is. you can't say Houston's or Dallas' urban core ends outside of the downtown freeway loop because that is what the City of Houston/Dallas defines as downtown. if that's the case, then Atlanta has some flat out suburban areas not in any urban grid in what is traditionally supposed to be downtown: https://goo.gl/maps/DeXMjsnFS54fzsvE7
^^you will not find something as suburban as the link above in either Downtown Houston or Dallas, and if someone wants to say "well there are surface lots!", then guess what? DT ATL has plenty of those too. that's what happens when a city inflates their downtown boundaries. DT Dallas and Houston boundaries are giant grids that'll be relatively easy to redevelop.
see to me, these neighborhoods are still very much a part of the urban cores in Houston and Dallas:
look at the difference between the 3. someone said earlier Atlanta has smaller streets but I question that too as clearly here it has the largest residential street of the 3. now downtown atlanta has smaller streets than downtown houston/dallas, but midtown Atlanta has streets just as wide. then the residential neighborhoods have streets that are sometimes wider than in the Texas cities.
also many Houston inner loop neighborhoods are almost built with a New Orleans style grid on small blocks that will create a better walking environment as the core continues to build up and is more urban (I only wish most of Inner Loop Houston was built this way). you see less of this in Dallas but far less of this in Atlanta where there are just long blocks which definitely hurts urbanity.
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Originally Posted by chiatldal
As mention before in Atlanta was the bigger and denser city early on. In 1920 Atlanta had 200k in 26 sq mi, Houston had 138,276 in 36.5 sq mi. So Atlanta had bigger historic boundaries consider Downtown than Houston did. Also in 1950 Atlanta was 302,288 in 34.7 with Houston being 384,514 in 72.8. Atlanta core was overtly denser. Dallas and Houston didn't actually surpass Atlanta core until the 60/70s ish. By this time was huge change with urban renewal and more suburban like developments. Dallas and Houston have a lot more suburban like Apartments around it's core. This is why Atlanta feels more traditional urban even with Dallas and Houston having a higher population now..
Atlanta doesn't feel more traditionally urban than Dallas or Houston. It just has a more active downtown/midtown than those equivalents in Houston or Dallas, but that's about where it stops. You're posting city boundaries at the time, but how does that mean Atlanta has a larger core? All it means is Houston started developing later. You are forgetting areas like Montrose, The East End/Harrisburg, Heights did not get annexed into Houston until the 1920s.
Even today, the Inner Loop alone in Houston has less square miles than the entire city of Atlanta, yet has more people and that's with it not even including Uptown Houston since it is technically outside the Inner Loop. That's why I say it doesn't matter what size these cities were in 1920 in relation to Atlanta because they were at different points in their growth cycle where the Texas cities were still actively building out their urban cores.
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This goes back to what I was saying I view in and along the Beltline loop as Atlanta core. Areas like West Midtown and O4W aren't in itself connect to Downtown/midtown but they are still in the general area, it's not like Buckhead CBD. In 10 to 20 years these area can effect the skyline depending on the shots.
Anyways I view Atlanta has an advantage around it's core, Dallas and Houston basically advantage for urbanity outside their core. Central Atlanta is going to look like a more sprawled baby Chicago while Dallas and Houston clearly take after LA more.
I'm not seeing baby Chicago with Atlanta. at most, the linear skyscraper skyline is what's similar but that's where it stops. In build style, the Texas cities are more like Chicago than Atlanta.
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Originally Posted by cdw1084
I'm not so sure Atlanta is being liberal with determining the size of downtown; instead its just the size. Again, I'm simply comparing the two districts in the heart of both cities. When people say Houston is 630 plus square miles, I don't say "Well, if Atlanta included Sandy Springs, Decatur, Alpharetta..etc"...No, the numbers are the numbers, plus I'm not saying Atlanta is more urban as the cities expand out as I've already said Houston's the more urban metro. However, just looking at the heart of the cities, Atlanta's core is larger and more urban.
Also, many people like to think density and urban is synonymous on here for whatever reason and that's simply not the case. Of course, I'm not saying Atlanta's downtown is as urban as Chicago. I'm not even going to dive into that.
But that's the thing, even looking at the heart of each city, Atlanta's may be more urban strictly in the downtown/midtown area, but that's where it ends. Houston and Dallas are much larger cities. Like you said, Houston is over 630 square miles with nearly 3 million people (so it is able to have a density amount that competes with Atlanta even being nearly 6x as large square mileage wise). That should tell you right there the core of Houston is larger than Atlanta because the city simply supports more.
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Originally Posted by Arcenal813
Or you could just go there and see for yourself.
As someone who has done both more times than I can count, folks saying Atlanta has the largest core is incorrect, unless they are excluding areas like Buckhead from the Greater Atlanta core and are only talking about Downtown/Midtown for these 3 cities. Doing that, then yeah Atlanta is bigger. If you want to include an area like Buckhead though (or any neighborhood just off the MARTA spine), then the Texas cities can do the same which means their cores are larger.
Now the most urban at this point in time I can agree with, esp when talking about downtown/midtown. but that's where it ends. anything outside of that, Houston and Dallas match right now. and in the case of Houston, there are more areas sprinkled around its inner loop urban core that has taken longer to connect/fill in due to the size, but the 2020s-2030s is the decade these areas REALLY start coming together.
Last edited by DabOnEm; 01-31-2023 at 05:33 AM..
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