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This is just a nitpick but Downtown Atlanta doesn’t really feel bigger than Downtown Houston and its physical size is kind of misleading since Atlanta seems a little more liberal with deciding what is considered “Downtown”. I mean SoNo gets considered as a part of Downtown Atlanta even though it is separated by god knows how many lanes of the downtown connector. Then there’s a bunch of garden style suburban apartments north of Ivan Allen Jr Blvd and south of North Ave that inflate the area of what is considered “Downtown.” There’s more areas in “Downtown Atlanta” that don’t really contribute to the urban fabric of downtown yet are considered downtown as well. None of these would be considered as a part of Downtown Houston or Dallas. I mean by this definition Downtown Atlanta is about the same size as Downtown Chicago, but when being in both it doesn’t really feel that way and it wouldn’t be right to say Atlanta’s core is the size of Chicago’s.
And also Downtown (or Downtown + Midtown) isn’t really synonymous with “core.”
That is traditional boundaries of Downtown.
It's semantics..... to most the US Downtown means the core but Atlantan's Downtown basically means the lowerside of the core, Midtown is the other. As I mention to another poster Downtown and Midtown have separate identities because they were separate areas historically. But Atlantans are going to combine them in sense how most places view a "Downtown" because they are connected as one.
A cultural way to look at it's Peachtree Street only in DT/MT it's change to Peachtree RD in Buckhead.
Also there's not a bunch of apartments is literally just one at the end but don't get started how much of that is around Dallas and Houston core. but the irony of your comment saying it SoNo "don’t really contribute to the urban fabric of downtown yet are considered downtown as well. None of these would be considered as a part of Downtown Houston or Dallas." when that's overtly untrue there several areas and each of there Downtown like it. Under develop midrise areas with a lot of parking. SoNo is basically transition area. For all sense and purpose Down and midtown feel like one place.
This is what I'm saying. Seems a few people are stating the urban cores as being strictly what the city determines as the downtown. that is not how to look at what a city's current urban core is. you can't say Houston's or Dallas' urban core ends outside of the downtown freeway loop because that is what the City of Houston/Dallas defines as downtown. if that's the case, then Atlanta has some flat out suburban areas not in any urban grid in what is traditionally supposed to be downtown: https://goo.gl/maps/DeXMjsnFS54fzsvE7
^^you will not find something as suburban as the link above in either Downtown Houston or Dallas, and if someone wants to say "well there are surface lots!", then guess what? DT ATL has plenty of those too. that's what happens when a city inflates their downtown boundaries. DT Dallas and Houston boundaries are giant grids that'll be relatively easy to redevelop.
First off that not DT Atlanta, second off the edge of Vine city, Vine City is blighted neighborhood. It would be like post a blighted pick in Houston 4th ward and trying past is off as generally the city of Houston. Or posting South Dallas or something. This tell me you have no idea what your posting or talking about.
It's case you don't know my user name is.. Chicago-Atlanta-Dallas. I born in Chicago but raised back and forth between DFW and Atlanta. And I have family in Houston been down there quite a few times. So can't run stuff like that on me.
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see to me, these neighborhoods are still very much a part of the urban cores in Houston and Dallas:
look at the difference between the 3. someone said earlier Atlanta has smaller streets but I question that too as clearly here it has the largest residential street of the 3. now downtown atlanta has smaller streets than downtown houston/dallas, but midtown Atlanta has streets just as wide. then the residential neighborhoods have streets that are sometimes wider than in the Texas cities.
also many Houston inner loop neighborhoods are almost built with a New Orleans style grid on small blocks that will create a better walking environment as the core continues to build up and is more urban (I only wish most of Inner Loop Houston was built this way). you see less of this in Dallas but far less of this in Atlanta where there are just long blocks which definitely hurts urbanity.
Atlanta doesn't feel more traditionally urban than Dallas or Houston. It just has a more active downtown/midtown than those equivalents in Houston or Dallas, but that's about where it stops. You're posting city boundaries at the time, but how does that mean Atlanta has a larger core? All it means is Houston started developing later. You are forgetting areas like Montrose, The East End/Harrisburg, Heights did not get annexed into Houston until the 1920s.
Even today, the Inner Loop alone in Houston has less square miles than the entire city of Atlanta, yet has more people and that's with it not even including Uptown Houston since it is technically outside the Inner Loop. That's why I say it doesn't matter what size these cities were in 1920 in relation to Atlanta because they were at different points in their growth cycle where the Texas cities were still actively building out their urban cores.
I'm not seeing baby Chicago with Atlanta. at most, the linear skyscraper skyline is what's similar but that's where it stops. In build style, the Texas cities are more like Chicago than Atlanta.
Ok this is funny...... the neighborhood you posted is one of the few neighborhoods in Atlanta that has wide streets, 90% of Atlanta does have much small streets nit picking is not even an understatement here. Also two things........ There are a bunch neighborhoods around Houston and Dallas core that look similar to that Atlanta neighborhood, Dallas actually has ranches house neighborhoods not to far from DT with that loft size, Ranch style homes was popular from the 1940 to 1960s. for Dallas to have so much near DT reflects age. Atlanta has a giant Victorian belt. Houston is zone randomness you can have a ranch house, American craft, 3 mc mansions with some duplex on same the street, this does feel urban either which I get to.
Second that Atlanta neighborhoods is the garden district. It's honestly a mix urban and suburban. it's important to noted Atlanta started from DT outward. So a neighborhood next MT is not necessary as urban as neighborhood next to DT. Atlanta more historic urban neighborhood are to East of Downtown. Which bring to my next two points...
I serious just clicked your Houston link and just turned to sided...... But some how your confused to what I mean by "traditional urban?" this what I meant by suburban Houston and Dallas have a high density of suburban style develop. So when you look at density it say Houston and Dallas has higher density on paper. But it does feel as urban Atlanta core.
Houston from your link
Dallas,.......... Houston and dallas core are denser because of significant more suburban apartments and etc. Not they have urban develops around there core.
Because age Houston and Dallas don't have the equipluve to Sweet Auburn, cabbagetown, most of O4W etc.
For examples reynoldstown as it add more infeel it will look more traditional urban.
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But that's the thing, even looking at the heart of each city, Atlanta's may be more urban strictly in the downtown/midtown area, but that's where it ends. Houston and Dallas are much larger cities. Like you said, Houston is over 630 square miles with nearly 3 million people (so it is able to have a density amount that competes with Atlanta even being nearly 6x as large square mileage wise). That should tell you right there the core of Houston is larger than Atlanta because the city simply supports more.
As someone who has done both more times than I can count, folks saying Atlanta has the largest core is incorrect, unless they are excluding areas like Buckhead from the Greater Atlanta core and are only talking about Downtown/Midtown for these 3 cities. Doing that, then yeah Atlanta is bigger. If you want to include an area like Buckhead though (or any neighborhood just off the MARTA spine), then the Texas cities can do the same which means their cores are larger.
Now the most urban at this point in time I can agree with, esp when talking about downtown/midtown. but that's where it ends. anything outside of that, Houston and Dallas match right now. and in the case of Houston, there are more areas sprinkled around its inner loop urban core that has taken longer to connect/fill in due to the size, but the 2020s-2030s is the decade these areas REALLY start coming together.
Again your equaling Density itself as urban, when a lot of Dallas and Houston density is suburban. I stopped in 1960's because development from this point became very suburban until the late 90's. Dallas and Houston around this time surpass Atlanta in density. With way more suburban muti units in there cities and around there core.
If you look at the mostly SFH around neighborhoods there core Dallas and Houston largely look like this. Dallas
There no belt of neighborhoods like this in Houston and Dallas. Atlanta
Funny story there a New Orleans rapper name Mystikal who has a song called "Bouncin' Back" is very Jazz sounding at end of video they react a Jazz funeral. Growing up I thought it was in New Orleans, but now I realize it was Cabbage town. They faked a New Orleans neighborhood itself in Atlanta. This pop up in my head when brought up New Orleans.
So it's not just Downtown/Midtown. It's Downtown/Midtown and a lot of neighborhoods surrounding them. once you get outside that than Dallas and Houston becomes more urban. When home lots start getting bigger.
As mention before in Atlanta was the bigger and denser city early on. In 1920 Atlanta had 200k in 26 sq mi, Houston had 138,276 in 36.5 sq mi. So Atlanta had bigger historic boundaries consider Downtown than Houston did. Also in 1950 Atlanta was 302,288 in 34.7 with Houston being 384,514 in 72.8. Atlanta core was overtly denser. Dallas and Houston didn't actually surpass Atlanta core until the 60/70s ish. By this time was huge change with urban renewal and more suburban like developments. Dallas and Houston have a lot more suburban like Apartments around it's core. This is why Atlanta feels more traditional urban even with Dallas and Houston having a higher population now..
Midtown is not Downtown but they basically connected as one it's only throw identity they are separate.
One thing I notice also people don't realize the width of Midtown, They see the distance wide shots assume it's just long. Midtown can revival some cities Downtown in the 1 to 3 million range.
This goes back to what I was saying I view in and along the Beltline loop as Atlanta core. Areas like West Midtown and O4W aren't in itself connect to Downtown/midtown but they are still in the general area, it's not like Buckhead CBD. In 10 to 20 years these area can effect the skyline depending on the shots.
Anyways I view Atlanta has an advantage around it's core, Dallas and Houston basically advantage for urbanity outside their core. Central Atlanta is going to look like a more sprawled baby Chicago while Dallas and Houston clearly take after LA more.
I didn't say TMC is part of Downtown Houston so it doesn't matter how far it is. What I said is both is in the core. What you are ignoring is that between downtown and TMC there is Midtown which is a 2 mile stretch, then there is Binz/ Museum District then Rice Hermann Park.
If you are unfamiliar with Houston and just look at the link you posted you would think it is separate development but no it is an urban park:
This is to the west of the park: https://houston.culturemap.com/media...=0%2C0%2C0%2C0. To the immediate west is Rice University and Rice Village do it is low rise but beyond that you can see the buildings in Upper Kirby, Lower Montrose and Greenway and Uptown in the distance way up top.
I don't discount having parks in the core. If they have interruptions such as this in between the development then ask the better https://cdn.hpm.io/wp-content/upload.../Hermann-4.jpg
Dallas's Core will feel more connected when the Trinity River park projects are completedhttps://business.rice.edu/sites/default/files/styles/1_1_360x360/public/2020-07/Home-Rice-Aerial-View.jpg?h=a3b4749a&itok=Xgx9K1tm.
Again Atlanta's just didn't have the expanse of core area that Houston has. Downtown to TMC is longer than Atlanta's Midtown to Downtown and Atlanta had no answer to east west developments in Houston. Atlanta has blocks Houston has miles.
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Originally Posted by chiatldal
First off that not DT Atlanta, second off the edge of Vine city, Vine City is blighted neighborhood. It would be like post a blighted pick in Houston 4th ward and trying past is off as generally the city of Houston. Or posting South Dallas or something. This tell me you have no idea what your posting or talking about.
Lol, his point is that the area he posted is considered part of Downtown Atlanta but the liking you posted is no where considered post of Downtown Houston. To get to that area you have to go through Downtown and East downtown then into 3rd ward or downtown, through Midtown into 3rd ward. Either way point is Atlanta can't be considered to have a bigger downtown if you get to this areas right in downtown.
Actually, it is. And yes, speaking of the central part of downtown -- not that one lone off the beaten path you posted at the extreme outer edge.
It's WIDER. Take the measurements yourself if you're still in doubt.
It's semantics..... to most the US Downtown means the core but Atlantan's Downtown basically means the lowerside of the core, Midtown is the other. As I mention to another poster Downtown and Midtown have separate identities because they were separate areas historically. But Atlantans are going to combine them in sense how most places view a "Downtown" because they are connected as one.
A cultural way to look at it's Peachtree Street only in DT/MT it's change to Peachtree RD in Buckhead.
Also there's not a bunch of apartments is literally just one at the end but don't get started how much of that is around Dallas and Houston core. but the irony of your comment saying it SoNo "don’t really contribute to the urban fabric of downtown yet are considered downtown as well. None of these would be considered as a part of Downtown Houston or Dallas." when that's overtly untrue there several areas and each of there Downtown like it. Under develop midrise areas with a lot of parking. SoNo is basically transition area. For all sense and purpose Down and midtown feel like one place.
My main points were that 1) Atlanta is more liberal with the designation of what gets considered “Downtown”, thus making its downtown land area higher and 2) using downtown or (downtown + midtown) size as a determinant for the size of a city’s core is just wrong. I don’t see how any of these can be argued.
As for your response to DabOnEm, again I’ve already said Atlanta’s core is more urban than Houston’s or Dallas’. I have said Houston has a bigger core than Atlanta but not a better one. Houston has a larger area of urban neighborhoods but Atlanta has a larger area of “very urban” neighborhoods. I think Houston has a further reaching core but the quality of development in Atlanta’s core is better (although slightly).
Also yeah you’re right that Atlanta has more areas like Sweet Auburn, Cabbagetown, etc where the lots are tiny and streets are narrow but I wouldn’t say Houston/Dallas have none.
Fourth Ward in Houston fits the description although the infrastructure is not as neat as the Atlanta ones.
My main points were that 1) Atlanta is more liberal with the designation of what gets considered “Downtown”, thus making its downtown land area higher and 2) using downtown or (downtown + midtown) size as a determinant for the size of a city’s core is just wrong. I don’t see how any of these can be argued.
You're saying Midtown isn't part of the Atlanta core??? And that it can't be argued? Why? It's right in the heart of the city.
You're saying Midtown isn't part of the Atlanta core??? And that it can't be argued? Why? It's right in the heart of the city.
You misread my point. I’m saying that you can’t say a city has a bigger core than another just because their downtown (or downtown + midtown) is bigger. I would never disagree with Midtown being a part of Atlanta’s core. For example Downtown Atlanta and Downtown Chicago are nearly the same size but I cannot say that Atlanta’s core is the size of Chicago’s just because of similar sized downtowns.
Nope, Im saying that you can’t say a city has a bigger core than another just because a downtown (or downtown + midtown) is bigger. I would never disagree with Midtown being a part of Atlanta’s core. For example Downtown Atlanta and Downtown Chicago are nearly the same size but I cannot say that Atlanta’s core is the size of Chicagos just because of similar sized downtowns.
Right. But the reason I brought size in was because a poster was trying to say that Atlanta's core is a very narrow sliver, and then went on to say that its downtown lacks width, which is far from true. Downtown Atlanta is not some linear strip, despite some of the silly claims people here love to make.
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