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The Atlanta suburbs have some nice projects going on and some solid downtowns but I still think DFW pulls ahead in this regard. It can match each of these Atlanta suburbs with their own downtown and DFW has much better rail coverage connecting these downtowns to Dallas. You’ve got direct rail access to suburbs and secondary cities in the metroplex like Downtown Plano, Downtown Garland, Downtown Carrollton, Las Colinas/Irving, Downtown Denton, Downtown Fort Worth, Downtown Grapevine, CityLine/Richardson, Lewisville, etc. Also with the Silver Line nearing completion that provides connectivity to UTD and Addison Circle.
Each of these areas has housing and retail delivered in a walkable layout along with direct rail access, which I feel is something Atlanta is unable say for its outer suburbs outside of Sandy Springs (I don’t consider Decatur an outer suburb). This doesn’t even include other walkable areas in the metroplex that aren’t along rail lines such as Legacy West, Downtown McKinney, Frisco, Southlake Town Square, etc.
I think both Dallas and Atlanta have a lot of traditional downtowns and new urbanist developments in their suburbs but Dallas’ larger rail network can prove to be an advantage for staring up more TODs in the suburbs.
Where Atlanta comes ahead of Dallas imo is rail and urbanism inside the city/urban core itself. MARTA is a true urban heavy rail system in a way that DART is not and I’ve always thought Atlanta has the strongest urban nodes and the best connectivity of these nodes of the three cities.
Eh, all 3 cities will still be in the same tier honestly. Atlanta SHOULD be seperating itself from the two because it has heavy rail, but it has been so stagnant on transit and other things of that sort, it hasn't elevated. Dallas is the only one out of the 3 actively building transit (buses don't count). All 3 are building high rises and densifying, so that's good.
But of course, out of the big 4 southern cities (HOU, DAL, ATL, MIA), Miami is by far and wide the most urban by far. Probably why it wasn't included with the other 3. Also building by far the tallest.
Why do you think Houston's I45 project won't help. It's it because they don't have plans for what comes next? It's it too wide?
Do you think the deck park near NRG will ever be built? That could be a game changer like your first link.
I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I think the I-45 project will actually help the urbanization of central Houston quite a bit (eventually). The Pierce Elevated is a huge barrier between downtown and Midtown and removing it by itself will facilitate more development southward. As far as the east side goes, short term I think the project will set it back in a way because half of the East Village area (west of St. Emanuel) is going to be taken out by the expanded trench. Businesses there are already relocating in advance of it and given the success of that area in recent years, its definitely unfortunate.
On the other hand, the rest of the Eado/Second Ward area is booming and the 45 project will, if anything, speed that up as folks move closer in to avoid the coming decade-long construction-related traffic disaster. If the deck parks across the new freeway are built, it will benefit both the eastern part of downtown and the east side tremendously. Eado in 15 years will look completely different - probably more like Midtown does today, at worst.
Once the main parts of the project are done, Houston will only have one freeway barrier in the urban core - I-10. Everything else will be trenched and a lot of it will be capped. I do expect the deck parks to happen - I think a lot of the reason detailed plans on this haven't been specified is just due to the uncertainty that the project itself would even happen. Now that there's a concrete timeline in place, I think we'll start hearing a lot more about the details (deck parks, what they will do with the Pierce Elevated, etc.).
Additionally, we're starting to see a lot more density going west from downtown already. The Allen Parkway/Memorial Drive Corridor is getting much denser and that will only accelerate. Montrose is starting to get high-rise development. The Heights and Rice Military keep getting denser and that will likely accelerate as well, especially with development of the Inner Katy BRT line around the corner.
Assuming everything goes right, Houston in 2050 could very well have fairly continuous dense development from downtown in three directions - east, west, and south. It's entirely possible you could be looking at skyscraper corridors from downtown south all the way to the Texas Medical Center and west out to the Galleria, with some higher development on the near east side as well. It could very well be an urban beast.
With all of that said, the city does need to continue down the road of doing a lot of the things they have been doing over the last couple of decades - focusing on walkability infrastructure at the ground level is an area that the city is playing catch-up with when compared to Atlanta and Dallas. For all of that density to actually result in a better urban experience, the details on the ground need to be done well.
Eh, all 3 cities will still be in the same tier honestly. Atlanta SHOULD be seperating itself from the two because it has heavy rail, but it has been so stagnant on transit and other things of that sort, it hasn't elevated. Dallas is the only one out of the 3 actively building transit (buses don't count). All 3 are building high rises and densifying, so that's good.
But of course, out of the big 4 southern cities (HOU, DAL, ATL, MIA), Miami is by far and wide the most urban by far. Probably why it wasn't included with the other 3. Also building by far the tallest.
Why do buses not count? They are just as much part of public transit as any other mode and are the backbone of many systems. Also while I think Miami is more urban of the four, people really overrate its urbanity. It's still very much a car centric city.
Eh, all 3 cities will still be in the same tier honestly. Atlanta SHOULD be seperating itself from the two because it has heavy rail, but it has been so stagnant on transit and other things of that sort, it hasn't elevated. Dallas is the only one out of the 3 actively building transit (buses don't count). All 3 are building high rises and densifying, so that's good.
But of course, out of the big 4 southern cities (HOU, DAL, ATL, MIA), Miami is by far and wide the most urban by far. Probably why it wasn't included with the other 3. Also building by far the tallest.
I don't think the urban nodes of the cities are as close as some are trying to make it seem. For instance, Houston and Dallas feel much closer to each other from the ground when compared to Atlanta. Atlanta clearly have better nodes, speaking from a city standpoint. Atlanta can clearly claim #2 behind Miami and its building more of an urban environment within the city compared to the other two.
As for the suburbs, I'll still give Atlanta the edge today, but Dallas may have something to say about that in the next 20 years.
Buses are hugely important in transit. I agree...why wouldn't they count? Good bus service--particularly with dedicated lanes and high frequencies--can be the basis of a pretty decent transit system.
As for urbanity, Atlanta gets somewhat of a leg up due to hills and trees. They can give a place an enclosed feeling that can be part of urbanity. A view into endlessness only helps if you're NYC.
Why do buses not count? They are just as much part of public transit as any other mode and are the backbone of many systems. Also while I think Miami is more urban of the four, people really overrate its urbanity. It's still very much a car centric city.
People on this forum heavily conflate density with urbanity.
While density can certainly aid in forming an urban environment, it does not in itself create one. Little Havana is extremely dense, but I would not call it urban.
The Atlanta suburbs have some nice projects going on and some solid downtowns but I still think DFW pulls ahead in this regard. It can match each of these Atlanta suburbs with their own downtown and DFW has much better rail coverage connecting these downtowns to Dallas. You’ve got direct rail access to suburbs and secondary cities in the metroplex like Downtown Plano, Downtown Garland, Downtown Carrollton, Las Colinas/Irving, Downtown Denton, Downtown Fort Worth, Downtown Grapevine, CityLine/Richardson, Lewisville, etc. Also with the Silver Line nearing completion that provides connectivity to UTD and Addison Circle.
So what's the Metroplex suburban downtown equivalent to Decatur? Or Alpharetta or Marietta for that matter? Is there anything like Serenbe in DFW?
It doesn't even look like TX's Carollton has the better downtown than GA's.
From poking around on Streetview, the suburban downtowns in the Metroplex have much potential for sure, but it seems that's about all that can be said about them at present. Even without rail access, there seems to be more recent/ongoing investment in Atlanta's suburban downtowns overall.
I don't think the urban nodes of the cities are as close as some are trying to make it seem. For instance, Houston and Dallas feel much closer to each other from the ground when compared to Atlanta. Atlanta clearly have better nodes, speaking from a city standpoint. Atlanta can clearly claim #2 behind Miami and its building more of an urban environment within the city compared to the other two.
As for the suburbs, I'll still give Atlanta the edge today, but Dallas may have something to say about that in the next 20 years.
Dallas urban nodes are all former streetcar nodes. Dallas' streetcar system didn't stop running until 1956. Atlanta's and Houston's stopped running much, much earlier. So, even early post WW2 sections of town did have streetcar service. Even shortly after some of the freeways within the city were completed. Dallas then was only 40 sq mi before WW2 ended.
Lower Greenville, Knox-Henderson, Jefferson Blvd/Bishop Arts in Oak Cliff, Oak Lawn, Lakewood etc. are former streetcar nodes that weren't demolished. That's honestly how the inner city is urbanizing. It started off as genuine revitalization, that now has morphed into full blown gentrification.
I've heard urban planners from the City of Dallas describe Dallas as a city with a Midwest rust belt core similar to like a Cleveland (except Cleveland didn't see a lot of redevelopment in the 70s-90s), but surrounded by a sunbelt city like a Phoenix or Jacksonville. Meaning, there are bones within the core of the city that can easily translate to more urban development, than a place like Far North Dallas. Yes, there are areas that are planning to see urban development in Far North Dallas, but it will take more time and investment to translate to a more urban environment.
Now, these former streetcar nodes have reached a point to where mixed use development is being built around it to create complete urban neighborhoods. So, the city, particularly in the inner core of Dallas aren't starting completely from scratch.
Similar to Atlanta, there was a depopulation in the inner city of Dallas too. In areas like Oak Cliff, what's now called Uptown Dallas, Old East Dallas, South Dallas, etc. because of desegregation/white flight in the late 60s-80s. It was off set by the suburban sprawl within newly developed areas of the city. I remember in the late 90s, there was a focus on trying to revitalize neighborhoods within Loop 12. By that time, some of those areas were rough.
Since the D2 subway is tabled, there's a push to connect these nodes back together with streercars.
A few examples - I don't want to get off on a tangent lol
This is Bishop Arts - Bishop Arts already a has a streetcar and will be linked to Uptown when the downtown central link is built.
Just more of a driving tour of "old Dallas", which features Jefferson Blvd (3:00-6:08), Davis St (8:40-12:00), and Bishop Arts (12:00-14:10). This area is in transition. Unfortunately, it doesn't show the Bishop Arts expansion near Davis St and Zang Blvd and the streetcar. This is the only part of town across from the Trinity River, that I would call a core area, based on historical urban form. The city is trying to build on the momentum that's happening in the area with the new Oak Cliff deck park nearby. I heard rumors that the streetcar will eventually connect to the Deck Park. Kinda strange since there's already a light rail station at the Dallas Zoo. I would say it will take another 10+ years to really connect all of these nodes together that exists in this one area. The city already has the zoning in place to make it happen.
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