Atlanta vs Houston vs Dallas, Which City will be more urban at the end of the decade? (beach, skyline)
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No I think you're just missing what I'm saying. The land use of Houston has been getting better in neighborhoods that are already larger in population than in peer cities. The walkscores have been improving in all of these core areas so imagine what they will look like at the end if this decade? Activity levels will be much higher. The title of this thread is which will be more urban by decade's end. If Houston already has the 'hoods with high population and density, what will happen to them once they get even more dense while increasing activity levels due to better walkability, transit, and more road diets like posted above? These aren't stagnant areas.
This is why Houston has the most potential and will catch people by surprise. You can break down these larger core neighborhoods in Houston right now into small areas of just a flew blocks like in Atlanta and get better scores. The scores are probably diluted due to the neighborhoods essentially being "super-neighborhoods" because they cover large areas. The size of Houston's core is about the same square miles as the entire City of Atlanta.
Yeah I mentioned this in another thread before. Walkscore can be a great reference but some of the methodologies they use will not lead to apple to apple comparisons.
As you noted, neighborhood size is one of them. For instance, most people agree (certainly all Houstonians) that Houston's downtown boundaries are I-10/I-69/I-45. But Walkscore has Downtown Houston including East End which makes no sense because there is currently a giant highway separating the two neighborhoods, although there are plans to sink the highway and cap it with a park to connect the two places more cohesively. As it stands now, Downtown Houston is still the most urban area in the city but its Walkscore is being brought down by East End which is still a work in progress with a bunch of industrial sites and vacant land not developed yet. If Downtown Houston did not include East End, its Walkscore would jump from 76 to 85+ (maybe touch 90) with about 10,000 residents in the area.
I also agree Houston seems to have the most potential in building its urban area in the upcoming decades if they put in the right policies to do it. If we agree that a Walkscore of 80 is considered urban here's how it breaksdown (using Walkscore's neighborhood boundaries, which I have problems with as I noted)
Population living in a neighborhood with a Walkscore above 80
Atlanta: 46,326
Dallas: 35,819
Houston: 37,539
If you include neighborhoods with a Walkscore above 70 (somewhat urban), it goes
Atlanta: 104,104
Dallas: 59,586
Houston: 97,404*
(Houston's number is the same value from the post I linked above, which is a few years ago. I'm not sure if they've made any updates to Houston in a few years)
If you include neighborhoods with a Walkscore above 60 (bones for future urban development), the population goes
Atlanta: 142,899
Dallas: 135,554
Houston: 493,104
Looking at the numbers, Houston appears to have the biggest potential to transform several populated areas into urban neighborhoods relative to each other (not NE cities/Chicago/SF standards). Some neighborhoods that have a score of 60+ like Sharpstown and Gulfton will not see any redevelopment anytime soon or this decade, but places like the Heights, 3rd Ward, and Washington Avenue will get there.
As many have noted, having a larger population or density doesn't necessarily mean it's urban if the pedestrian experience is poor which has been the case for Houston in the past. But it seems the city is sort of turning a corner with how they've been slowly reducing parking minimum requirements, overwhelmingly approving a transit referendum, and acknowledged the need to improve the pedestrian/biking experience while developers are ramping up the right projects in downtown and the neighborhoods adjacent to it.
I'm not sure Houston will pass Atlanta or Dallas by the end of the decade in providing the best urban experience, but the future does look bright for the city inside the loop.
Last edited by Fairlady Z; 01-15-2020 at 01:08 PM..
Do you do this type of stuff in real life too? Like what are the psychological and emotional benefits you get from this? I'm genuinely curious.
Haha... What? You’re concerned for my mental and emotional stability because of my opinion of the Beltline vs what is available in Dallas? I’m sorry, that is just laughable. Not everyone is going to have the same opinions on things, that’s what makes life interesting.
I already alluded to this earlier in the thread when I mentioned Atlanta started further ahead in this urban renewal cities are seeing. But what you describe has also been happening in Dallas and Houston, so they've been going through much change.
The sentence in bold is what I'm referring to when speaking of Houston. Many of these neighborhoods with scores in the high-60s-70s and populations greater than 10k+ in Houston have been going through rapid change themselves. By decade's end, you'll be talking about neighborhoods taking up much larger areas yet able to keep walkscores relatively high. This differs from Dallas because it's core neighborhoods aren't as large in area and it differs from Atlanta because there will not be a huge drop off in density/walkability.
I think you might be too focused on just the walk-scores of these neighborhoods between the three cities. There is more to it than that because the neighborhoods come in different shapes and sizes. It's hard to compare a neighborhood of just a few city blocks (Sweet Auburn in Atlanta, Bryan Place in Dallas) to one that's a few square miles (Neartown-Montrose in Houston). The latter neighborhood can be divided into smaller sections to boost walkscores...
What Im focused on its a coheesive urban environment in which all those Atlanta neighborhoods because of things like MARTA and the Beltline are getting closer and closer to each other.
You keep talking about neighborhoods as though they should be islands of urbanity rather than connected seemless urban environment like citie up North.
Sweet Auburn runs into Cabbagetown and Old Fourth Ward.
L5P bleeds into Inman and Candler Parks .
All these areas and more are becoming what highly functional urbana city is supposed to be
Houston has over 400 sq miles to Atlanta's 138 sq mi.However the urbanized area which is inside the perimeter is basically what Houston is,Buckhead runs right into the town of Broolhaven and Sandy Springs. You cant tell where one beigins and the other stops as its continuous development that connects teh city of Atlanta to two other inside Perimeter cities.
Unlike Houston,Atlanta isnt the only city in its county of Fulton. Its not consolidated with the county.
At best its a gamble whcih of these three cities has the best case to urbanize fastest but currently from what I see its Atlanta and I dont see how thats gonna change unless Atlanta just stops growing.
What Im focused on its a coheesive urban environment in which all those Atlanta neighborhoods because of things like MARTA and the Beltline are getting closer and closer to each other.
You keep talking about neighborhoods as though they should be islands of urbanity rather than connected seemless urban environment like citie up North.
Sweet Auburn runs into Cabbagetown and Old Fourth Ward.
L5P bleeds into Inman and Candler Parks .
All these areas and more are becoming what highly functional urbana city is supposed to be
Houston has over 400 sq miles to Atlanta's 138 sq mi.However the urbanized area which is inside the perimeter is basically what Houston is,Buckhead runs right into the town of Broolhaven and Sandy Springs. You cant tell where one beigins and the other stops as its continuous development that connects teh city of Atlanta to two other inside Perimeter cities.
Unlike Houston,Atlanta isnt the only city in its county of Fulton. Its not consolidated with the county.
At best its a gamble whcih of these three cities has the best case to urbanize fastest but currently from what I see its Atlanta and I dont see how thats gonna change unless Atlanta just stops growing.
Still those Atlanta neighborhoods take up a smaller area. Besides, couldn't we also say these larger Houston neighborhoods in the core bleed into each other as well? What will it look like when their walkscores are all above 77? Also, the Perimeter is about twice as large as Houston's 610 Loop.
I agree it's a gamble but people really underestimate what has been going on in Houston and are not aware of Houston's core neighborhoods (evident by the walk-score talk). To build off that, Houston is also not the only city in it's county. There are like three cities mixed in with the urban core. The list FairladyZ posted with the population differences in neighborhoods above 60 walk score shows Houston has the most potential because many of those neighborhoods have the bones to be much better.
Great topic with some great discussion here. I'm completely biased in this discussion as I've lived in DFW most of my life and haven't spent much time in either Houston or Atlanta. With that said, I'm completely stoked to see where Dallas is heading in the next decade and it sounds like Atlanta/Houston will also be forces to be reckoned with.
What I'm most excited about is the possibility of the HSR connecting two powerful cities (Dallas/Houston obviously) and creating some better synergy between them.
Great topic with some great discussion here. I'm completely biased in this discussion as I've lived in DFW most of my life and haven't spent much time in either Houston or Atlanta. With that said, I'm completely stoked to see where Dallas is heading in the next decade and it sounds like Atlanta/Houston will also be forces to be reckoned with.
What I'm most excited about is the possibility of the HSR connecting two powerful cities (Dallas/Houston obviously) and creating some better synergy between them.
Yeah I agree it's interesting seeing where these three cities are going after watching them grow the last decade. They have all gotten a lot more urban in their own unique ways. What's also interesting is Miami is hardly ever grouped with them anymore in discussions like this because South Florida has probably changed the most.
Haha... What? You’re concerned for my mental and emotional stability because of my opinion of the Beltline vs what is available in Dallas? I’m sorry, that is just laughable. Not everyone is going to have the same opinions on things, that’s what makes life interesting.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.
The main thing that stands apart from the trails in Dallas vs the Beltline is how the Beltline integrates vasts amounts of neighborhoods and parks bringing them into synergy within the circumference of the core. Dallas definitely has nice trails but the difference is, they aren't exactly functional as a unit but more less operate very independently in comparison.
I like Dallas but the Beltline is on another level when it comes its category.
Yeah I mentioned this in another thread before. Walkscore can be a great reference but some of the methodologies they use will not lead to apple to apple comparisons.
As you noted, neighborhood size is one of them. For instance, most people agree (certainly all Houstonians) that Houston's downtown boundaries are I-10/I-69/I-45. But Walkscore has Downtown Houston including East End which makes no sense because there is currently a giant highway separating the two neighborhoods, although there are plans to sink the highway and cap it with a park to connect the two places more cohesively. As it stands now, Downtown Houston is still the most urban area in the city but its Walkscore is being brought down by East End which is still a work in progress with a bunch of industrial sites and vacant land not developed yet. If Downtown Houston did not include East End, its Walkscore would jump from 76 to 85+ (maybe touch 90) with about 10,000 residents in the area.
I also agree Houston seems to have the most potential in building its urban area in the upcoming decades if they put in the right policies to do it. If we agree that a Walkscore of 80 is considered urban here's how it breaksdown (using Walkscore's neighborhood boundaries, which I have problems with as I noted)
Population living in a neighborhood with a Walkscore above 80
Atlanta: 46,326
Dallas: 35,819
Houston: 37,539
If you include neighborhoods with a Walkscore above 70 (somewhat urban), it goes
Atlanta: 104,104
Dallas: 59,586
Houston: 97,404*
(Houston's number is the same value from the post I linked above, which is a few years ago. I'm not sure if they've made any updates to Houston in a few years)
If you include neighborhoods with a Walkscore above 60 (bones for future urban development), the population goes
Atlanta: 142,899
Dallas: 135,554
Houston: 493,104
Looking at the numbers, Houston appears to have the biggest potential to transform several populated areas into urban neighborhoods relative to each other (not NE cities/Chicago/SF standards). Some neighborhoods that have a score of 60+ like Sharpstown and Gulfton will not see any redevelopment anytime soon or this decade, but places like the Heights, 3rd Ward, and Washington Avenue will get there.
As many have noted, having a larger population or density doesn't necessarily mean it's urban if the pedestrian experience is poor which has been the case for Houston in the past. But it seems the city is sort of turning a corner with how they've been slowly reducing parking minimum requirements, overwhelmingly approving a transit referendum, and acknowledged the need to improve the pedestrian/biking experience while developers are ramping up the right projects in downtown and the neighborhoods adjacent to it.
I'm not sure Houston will pass Atlanta or Dallas by the end of the decade in providing the best urban experience, but the future does look bright for the city inside the loop.
This guy HAIFs.
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