Dallas(Loop 12) vs. Atlanta(ITP) which one would you rather live in? (Los Angeles, taxes)

[CleverOne]

As I was saying also because of the development of areas in the Southern areas of Downtown Atlanta is another reason I strongly think Atlanta's core is developing faster to urbanity.
Often times people just overlook the lower income areas of the cities.In Atlanta like Dallas much of those areas are written off as if they dont exist as people who have no need to go there have no clue and no interest. They believe they are so bad due to negative press.Often times its overblown.

One such area in Atlanta is the West End.I was was reading a few random articles about development in the city.In more than one article it was mentioning that due to Atlanta's student population at nearby Georgia Tech and Georgia State Universities blah blah and such and such.
One article even included Emory University in that list.

One of Atlanta's most unique attributes is the Atlanta University Center which is the largest consortium of black colleges in North America.
Morehouse College
Spelman College
Morris Brown College
International Theological Seminary
Clark Atlanta University
Morehouse School of Medicine
They are all located in the same area in Southwest Atlanta.No more than one mile or from the center of Downtown
Its an area that is very vibrant with heavy foot traffic at all times due to the West End Mall,West End Marta Station and street level retail and restaurants. The type you would find in a lower income neighborhood.
The Mall West End is one of the oldest malls in Atlanta and is a small mall surrounded by a parking lot.
There is a major plan to replace its with a midrise mixed retail and housing.



This area is already busy but this one big project alone will transform an area that is already seeing a surge in housing prices due to the Beltline less than a half a mile away.The Beltline yet again is one of the main reasons why the area is seeing such development.Yet another reason why I cant see why one poster was insisting that the Beltline was not the huge advantage most agreed it was

Morehouse School of Medicine is developing medical offices ,retail and housing less than 2 blocks away from the mall and Beltline.Its almost completed.



https://atlanta.curbed.com/2018/10/3...round-westside

For either of these cities to be complete functional examples of urbanizim,there cant be large areas with large minority populations ignored.
The best cities in the world dont have these large ignored depressed areas.Look at cities like Montreal,Vancover,Melbourne etc. Poverty exist but its more spread around the cities

Due to its focus on depressed areas ,This again is why I strongly believe Atlanta is on the cusp of becoming a complete urbanized city in a much shorter time.As I have said before that Atlanta areas like this were once thriving so its just a matter redevelopment back to their former glory or better.

I dont have to be right.I could be wrong but based on what I have seen on here vs what I have seen and heard myself,I havent seen one shread of evidence otherwise.
Just like I have for Atlanta,Ive looked read and tried to find similar investments in the core of Dallas and its surrounding areas.
Im glad East Downtown Dallas is getting it shot as I remember it was just dead to be so close to the center.

Dallas will get there but its not as close as Atlanta is .With Atlantas full attention to the often ignored areas now centered toward those areas ,I cant see how Dallas would get there any sooner than Atlanta when Atlanta is partially there as it is with a huge lead more in investment in a side of town that Dallas is still ignoring for the most part . Thats been my point the whole time

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by CleverOne

Often times people just overlook the lower income areas of the cities.In Atlanta like Dallas much of those areas are written off as if they dont exist as people who have no need to go there have no clue and no interest. They believe they are so bad due to negative press.Often times its overblown.

Bravo, this is so on point and one of the reasons I try to stay clear of this subforum. This happens so often and it's not limited to just these two cities either. There seems to be this bias on this forum towards high income areas being the end all be all of any debate.

For example, there was thread a while comparing Atlanta's transit ridership to another (I forget now) city's. Despite Atlanta having 3 times the ridership of the city it was being compared to, a poster blew off and causally said "Well, that doesn't count because that's all low income people."

[CleverOne]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Bravo, this is so on point and one of the reasons I try to stay clear of this subforum. This happens so often and it's not limited to just these two cities either. There seems to be this bias on this forum towards high income areas being the end all be all of any debate.

For example, there was thread a while comparing Atlanta's transit ridership to another (I forget now) city's. Despite Atlanta having 3 times the ridership of the city it was being compared to, a poster blew off and causally said "Well, that doesn't count because that's all low income people."

Yes. I see this everywhere.
I remember the first time I went to Oakland.Only reason I was in Oakland was my friend had a house there.This was in the late 90's. All i heard from people in San Francisco was be careful.Even before I got there.My friend is black and even then was making good money in IT and had a house in a modest well kept neighborhood of mostly minorities
I was totally confused as I didnt see much run down areas and those I did were not scary.Just more outdated than rundown. I walked around Jack London Square thought it was a nice area but just couldnt figure out why so many people were warning me.
Now look at Oakland today.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by CleverOne

Yes. I see this everywhere.
I remember the first time I went to Oakland.Only reason I was in Oakland was my friend had a house there.This was in the late 90's. All i heard from people in San Francisco was be careful.Even before I got there.My friend is black and even then was making good money in IT and had a house in a modest well kept neighborhood of mostly minorities
I was totally confused as I didnt see much run down areas and those I did were not scary.Just more outdated than rundown. I walked around Jack London Square thought it was a nice area but just couldnt figure out why so many people were warning me.
Now look at Oakland today.

Lol, yeah, West Coast rundown isn't so bad compared to a similarly described area in the East. I remember once in Vegas a cab driver told me we were in the "bad neighborhood" and I'm like "where?" LOL

[Dallas12]

Originally Posted by CleverOne

As I was saying also because of the development of areas in the Southern areas of Downtown Atlanta is another reason I strongly think Atlanta's core is developing faster to urbanity.
Often times people just overlook the lower income areas of the cities.In Atlanta like Dallas much of those areas are written off as if they dont exist as people who have no need to go there have no clue and no interest. They believe they are so bad due to negative press.Often times its overblown.

One such area in Atlanta is the West End.I was was reading a few random articles about development in the city.In more than one article it was mentioning that due to Atlanta's student population at nearby Georgia Tech and Georgia State Universities blah blah and such and such.
One article even included Emory University in that list.

One of Atlanta's most unique attributes is the Atlanta University Center which is the largest consortium of black colleges in North America.
Morehouse College
Spelman College
Morris Brown College
International Theological Seminary
Clark Atlanta University
Morehouse School of Medicine
They are all located in the same area in Southwest Atlanta.No more than one mile or from the center of Downtown
Its an area that is very vibrant with heavy foot traffic at all times due to the West End Mall,West End Marta Station and street level retail and restaurants. The type you would find in a lower income neighborhood.
The Mall West End is one of the oldest malls in Atlanta and is a small mall surrounded by a parking lot.
There is a major plan to replace its with a midrise mixed retail and housing.



This area is already busy but this one big project alone will transform an area that is already seeing a surge in housing prices due to the Beltline less than a half a mile away.The Beltline yet again is one of the main reasons why the area is seeing such development.Yet another reason why I cant see why one poster was insisting that the Beltline was not the huge advantage most agreed it was

Morehouse School of Medicine is developing medical offices ,retail and housing less than 2 blocks away from the mall and Beltline.Its almost completed.



https://atlanta.curbed.com/2018/10/3...round-westside

For either of these cities to be completely functional examples of urbanism, their cant is large areas with large minority populations ignored.
The best cities in the world don't have these large ignored depressed areas. Look at cities like Montreal, Vancouver,Melbourne etc. Poverty exist but it's more spread around the cities

Due to its focus on depressed areas, This again is why I strongly believe Atlanta is on the cusp of becoming a complete urbanized city in a much shorter time. As I have said before that Atlanta areas like this were once thriving so its just a matter redevelopment back to their former glory or better.

I don't have to be right. I could be wrong but based on what I have seen on here vs what I have seen and heard myself, I haven't seen one shred of evidence otherwise.
Just like I have for Atlanta, I've looked read and tried to find similar investments in the core of Dallas and its surrounding areas.
I'm glad East Downtown Dallas is getting it shot as I remember it was just dying to be so close to the center.

Dallas will get there but it's not as close as Atlanta is. With Atlanta's full attention to the often-ignored areas now centered toward those areas, I cant see how Dallas would get there any sooner than Atlanta when Atlanta is partially there as it is with a huge lead more in investment in a side of town that Dallas is still ignoring for the most part. That's been my point the whole time

Overall, I agree with you that Atlanta is further ahead since its street configuration is narrower, good urban bones, and the natural topography is stunning. It also practically has everything that defines Atlanta right in the heart of the city, like its universities, stadiums, and cultural institutions. I really like it and respect what it's doing to take its center city to the next level.

But understand this point here. Downtown Dallas has a very compelling argument on why it should be considered one of, if not, the best urban renewal story amongst other metro areas across the country. Downtown Dallas was so far behind at one point. The sheer amount of buildings completely vacant illuminated many issues the city faced and how much competition it continues to experience from its suburbs AND the city 35 miles west of us.

Now, it's vastly different than what it was before. Unfortunately, with progress there's pain. Gentrification is in full-swing and neighborhoods are completely changing its face.

The poor will continue to get pushed around because of market volatility.

[CleverOne]

Originally Posted by Dallas12

Overall, I agree with you that Atlanta is further ahead since its street configuration is narrower, good urban bones, and the natural topography is stunning. It also practically has everything that defines Atlanta right in the heart of the city, like its universities, stadiums, and cultural institutions. I really like it and respect what it's doing to take its center city to the next level.

But understand this point here. Downtown Dallas has a very compelling argument on why it should be considered one of, if not, the best urban renewal story amongst other metro areas across the country. Downtown Dallas was so far behind at one point. The sheer amount of buildings completely vacant illuminated many issues the city faced and how much competition it continues to experience from its suburbs AND the city 35 miles west of us.

Now, it's vastly different than what it was before. Unfortunately, with progress there's pain. Gentrification is in full-swing and neighborhoods are completely changing its face.

The poor will continue to get pushed around because of market volatility.

I guess I should be clearer and say I agree and I know how far Dallas has come.
Let me give you an example of where Im coming from.
You will rarely hear me try to explain why a person,place or thing is the way it is.
Its like meeting someone who you have mutual friend with and you tell the friend what you the impression you had of them.
I tell them how I thought the person a not mean but not the friendlies either times but was very smart and knowledgeable.He left no impression on me good or bad but seemed descent enough.
Our mutual friend tells me well if you met him 4 years ago you would have probably wanted to fight him as he was just very nasty with a really bad attitude but since he has been in therapy he has been more .
So the new acquaintance is someone I could do with or without as I know too many people with great personalities and are more than pleasant to be around.Why bother with this person?

This is how I see Dallas(not so literal). Dallas is great but if you have a standard of urbanity sans NYC,Boston,SF etc then its not there.Neither is Atlanta but its level is closer to those cities and no matter why or how,Dallas still is behind.
Yes these cities are very similar bit the way the CITY of Atlanta is growing is more urban and dense than Dallas because:
*The project sizes are much bigger
*The amount of investment is larger
*The population in the city core is growing faster than Dallas core(ATL/16.7% vs DAL 12.3%).That population is already double that of Atlanta
Atlanta lost a lot more in population than Dallas ever did( follow up more at the end)
*More urban walkable areas in the core by a very wide margin. Atlanta's score is dragged down by its outer fringes of the city
* More depressed areas of Atlanta are seeing reinvestment than Dallas which has a considerable less investment compared to the entire city
* Much of that investment and driving urbanity is due to The Beltline and MARTA TODS.

To expand on a very important difference, Atlanta lost over hundred thousand residents and took 30 years to get back where it once was,
Unlike Dallas who annexed with its county and didnt see as much of a disinvestment as Atlanta . Dallas has never lost population like Atlanta has.
In 1960 Atlanta has only a 1.6% population increase and from that point on it was in decline until 2000 Census was there an actual increase.

Dallas has never had a decrease again thats largely due from annexation and demographics.
What many dont know is that all those attractions you mentioned being in the city itself,that was also due to planning.Atlanta didnt always have such high visitation numbers.
Atlanta has been way more agrgessive in making its downtown a magnet for tourist who at one point were largely business tourist but now pleasure tourist.Not like Miami or Las Vegas more as a regional destination.

They were aggressive in making sure they had the best venues from the arenas , stadiums and especiallly the Georgia World Congress Convention Center with some of the biggest events held there in the US
World class attractions like the GA Aquarium,Coke Museum,Center for Human and Civil Rights,and really courting officials to move the College Football of fame,
The biggest pitch of all was the Olympics which I think many dont really know just how much the games have and continue to do for Atlanta.

Atlantic Station was the biggest of its kind in all of North America.I may be mistaken but I dont think Dallas has built anything on that level.Then add the Beltline
Im kinda all over the place now because Im tired I feel like some are just trying to paint me as a homer but ive been asking to provide a counter to my arguments and they have been pretty much dismissed or ignored so what other conclusion would make sense?

There are several cities like Pittsburgh,DC,Philadelphia,Atlanta and even NYC that have come further than Dallas.
NYC was bankrupt twice and was so dangerous with slums everywhere.Whole blocks where burned down buildings and trash just everywhere. Same with Philly and loss of population as well.

Cites with big declines tend to make big plans to get back to their former glory

[R1070]

Originally Posted by As Above So Below...

Atlanta isnt an urban oasis. Neither is Dallas. Neither of them arent even close.

I can see Atlanta's core as being ahead because its older but I dont see its progressing any faster/slower than Dallas. They both seem to be putting in work to make their cores better and kudos to them for that. To me, Atlanta goes from urban core to exurban sprawl much faster than Dallas as you leave the center of town. Dallas' core might not be as developed as Atlanta's, but there are more layers of transition between urban core and exurban sprawl.

Yep

[Dallaz]

In this thread, people are saying “Atlanta’s Core is much older”. This is Dallas in 1951. I don’t want people to get the impression that Dallas was podunk. Dallas pretty much (nearly) destroyed its Downtown due to terrible urban planning in the 50s and 60s.


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/01/ff...fb95ad60e2.jpg

Here’s a video from 1955, showing the auto-centric planning that helped accelerate suburban sprawl and Downtown’s decline.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=leAKXcaLDd4

Edit: The tallest building in Dallas at that time (which is featured in the video), was the tallest building west of the Mississippi.

[Exult.Q36]

Originally Posted by Dallaz

In this thread, people are saying “Atlanta’s Core is much older”. This is Dallas in 1951. I don’t want people to get the impression that Dallas was podunk. Dallas pretty much (nearly) destroyed its Downtown due to terrible urban planning in the 50s and 60s.


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/01/ff...fb95ad60e2.jpg

Here’s a video from 1955, showing the auto-centric planning that helped accelerate suburban sprawl and Downtown’s decline.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=leAKXcaLDd4

Edit: The tallest building in Dallas at that time (which is featured in the video), was the tallest building west of the Mississippi.

That foot traffic in Downtown Dallas was just beautiful and you could see in that clip how Dallas was evolving into an auto centric city, which would later suck the life out of downtown as people moved further and further from the core.

[Redlionjr]

Originally Posted by CleverOne

I guess I should be clearer and say I agree and I know how far Dallas has come.
Let me give you an example of where Im coming from.
You will rarely hear me try to explain why a person,place or thing is the way it is.
Its like meeting someone who you have mutual friend with and you tell the friend what you the impression you had of them.
I tell them how I thought the person a not mean but not the friendlies either times but was very smart and knowledgeable.He left no impression on me good or bad but seemed descent enough.
Our mutual friend tells me well if you met him 4 years ago you would have probably wanted to fight him as he was just very nasty with a really bad attitude but since he has been in therapy he has been more .
So the new acquaintance is someone I could do with or without as I know too many people with great personalities and are more than pleasant to be around.Why bother with this person?

This is how I see Dallas(not so literal). Dallas is great but if you have a standard of urbanity sans NYC,Boston,SF etc then its not there.Neither is Atlanta but its level is closer to those cities and no matter why or how,Dallas still is behind.
Yes these cities are very similar bit the way the CITY of Atlanta is growing is more urban and dense than Dallas because:
*The project sizes are much bigger
*The amount of investment is larger
*The population in the city core is growing faster than Dallas core(ATL/16.7% vs DAL 12.3%).That population is already double that of Atlanta
Atlanta lost a lot more in population than Dallas ever did( follow up more at the end)
*More urban walkable areas in the core by a very wide margin. Atlanta's score is dragged down by its outer fringes of the city
* More depressed areas of Atlanta are seeing reinvestment than Dallas which has a considerable less investment compared to the entire city
* Much of that investment and driving urbanity is due to The Beltline and MARTA TODS.

To expand on a very important difference, Atlanta lost over hundred thousand residents and took 30 years to get back where it once was,
Unlike Dallas who annexed with its county and didnt see as much of a disinvestment as Atlanta . Dallas has never lost population like Atlanta has.
In 1960 Atlanta has only a 1.6% population increase and from that point on it was in decline until 2000 Census was there an actual increase.

Dallas has never had a decrease again thats largely due from annexation and demographics.
What many dont know is that all those attractions you mentioned being in the city itself,that was also due to planning.Atlanta didnt always have such high visitation numbers.
Atlanta has been way more agrgessive in making its downtown a magnet for tourist who at one point were largely business tourist but now pleasure tourist.Not like Miami or Las Vegas more as a regional destination.

They were aggressive in making sure they had the best venues from the arenas , stadiums and especiallly the Georgia World Congress Convention Center with some of the biggest events held there in the US
World class attractions like the GA Aquarium,Coke Museum,Center for Human and Civil Rights,and really courting officials to move the College Football of fame,
The biggest pitch of all was the Olympics which I think many dont really know just how much the games have and continue to do for Atlanta.

Atlantic Station was the biggest of its kind in all of North America.I may be mistaken but I dont think Dallas has built anything on that level.Then add the Beltline
Im kinda all over the place now because Im tired I feel like some are just trying to paint me as a homer but ive been asking to provide a counter to my arguments and they have been pretty much dismissed or ignored so what other conclusion would make sense?

There are several cities like Pittsburgh,DC,Philadelphia,Atlanta and even NYC that have come further than Dallas.
NYC was bankrupt twice and was so dangerous with slums everywhere.Whole blocks where burned down buildings and trash just everywhere. Same with Philly and loss of population as well.

Cites with big declines tend to make big plans to get back to their former glory

Great breakdown