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Originally Posted by CleverOne
Yes,I dint have time to get my blood pressure up over silliness.Its not that serious.I dont have a need to be right.I dont think I know everything but i never just make stuff up out of the blue.
Ok so if we want to talk about which city has changed the most then lets go back to 1864 when Atlanta was burned by Sherman.
Then later the Great Fire of 1917 in Atlanta that displaced over 10,000 people and over 300 acres
We could also highlight Atlanta since the Olympics
The 1996 Atlanta Olympics
Total Cost of games $5b
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Of course, I read about that. It's a rather unfortunate situation that turned Atlanta into an amazing city.
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Atlantic Station
$2b
Atlantic Station undergoing the largest expansion since it was built
Atlantic Yards (at Atlantic Station),hotel,Apartments cost around $300 million
The Gulch @ Centennial Yards is a $5b development which is 40acres of development downtown
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Dallas' Victory Park is supposed to cost over $3 billion at 75 acres (if we're talking numbers), but I think we have a different philosophy on what's important. The economic impact that a project has on its immediate area is what I consider way more important than the numbers. A $400 million investment in an impoverished neighborhood will have net a higher residual effect in the neighborhood, than a $1 billion project in the heart of Downtown Dallas. For example, the Bishop Arts District versus the Field St. District located in Downtown Dallas. Both will highly impact their areas, but what's happening in Oak Cliff is pretty cool. It's literally changing the face of the area by restoring/creating a sense of place with quality projects. Apartments, townhomes, and capital investment have skyrocketed because of the attention brought to emphasizing the pedestrian experience.
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GSU Summerhill expansion stadium,apartments ,retail,hotels,office etc.Expected cost over $800million.
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Although Atlanta has done a phenomenal job with optimizing the infrastructure of its universities, Downtown Dallas recently opened a Law School under the UNT System. It's also opening a Montessori School for children as the demographics have changed a bit.
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the Beltline
Mind you the Beltline is not even finished
The Beltline is to Atlanta what Klyde Waren Park did for Dallas.That was $110million total cost but the Beltline is far reaching,Not just downtown.Actually Centennial Olympic Park is more likely a better comparison. It spurred a lot of development around the park that still going on today since it was built for the Olympics.We are talking about 21 acre industrial blighted area downtown that is now a centerpiece park for Dowtown.
Ehhh... not necessarily. The renovation project of 1401 Elm St. alone is a whopping $450 million! The Statler Hilton restoration was over $260 million. The Discovery District is costing over $110 million to construct (and it's only 2.4 acres). These are large-scale projects that are specifically designed to activate surrounding blocks and stimulate development across surrounding lots. If you're talking large-scale developments, then that's another discussion.
Aslo the Beltline is not just a trail. Its also parks and public spaces allowing connectivity to the city at large
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Those are some really nice developments and I know they'll do great things for the city. The Beltline is an absolute monster development. We have something very similar called the Trinity River Project. But I can guarantee that the Beltline is FAR ahead of the game since we seem to have a problem in the 'implementation phase'.
So yes, you and I agree on the Beltline project
for sure. As for Centennial Park, imagine us breaking the 20-acre park up, and creating four parks in the CBD right now. Add those four to the ones that we're completed in the last 10 years (Klyde Warren, Main St. Garden, and Belo Plaza). I truly believe it will do a great deal to improve the QOL for the area and spur economic development there.
The size and cost of the Beltline is just way beyond anything happening in Dallas.I think we agree on that b
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ut its hard for people to see just how much of an impact the Beltline is happening when you see the areas that are and have changing because of it
The land Historic Forth Ward Park sits on was a 100percent industrial area. Its now a 17 acre park surrounded by apartments and condos already and the lastest plans for the remaining 12 acre area
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/hwKS...CityLead.0.jpg
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The Trinity River Project in Dallas (also similar to the Bayou project in Houston) is the equivalent to the Beltline Project.
- They all will stitch neighborhoods together.
- All will add quality greenspace in its path.
- All are going to inject long-lasting growth in underprivileged areas.
- All are utilizing and revitalizing space that was used commercially in the past.
- All may very well have transportation options in the long-term future. I think the Beltline currently has this.
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I honestly must have missed something because nothing you or anyone has provided from Dallas has shown anything close to scale of any of thes projects in Atlanta
You mention the East Quarter and thats less than 10 acreas. There have been and are at least 7 projects over 15 acres being developed in Atlanta core.
I havent seen anything you are anyone else has posted to debunk what I said about Atlanta having bigger and more large scale projects than Dallas.
Dallas has more construction as I already said but its not filling in as fast as Atlanta as Ive given numbers of how big these projects are to prove it.
The Discovery District as you said is 2.6 acres
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I want you to use some logic here, with all due respect. Downtown Dallas currently has
the largest amount of vacant land out of any CBD in the nation. How can you possibly believe that Dallas does
not have projects over 15 acres in the works?
And quite honestly, I care more about the pound-for-pound effect it will have in terms of absolute economic improvement.
- The De La Vega development is over 20 acres.
- The Cedars neighborhood has a few developers that are buying large parcels of land in anticipation of the HSR to Houston. The east side of the district is now getting some attention from the developer who made Deep Ellum relevant today. Another large real estate investor rounded up 15 acres called the 'SoGood' project. Essentially to renovate/restore the existing buildings there.
- Harwood is a master-planned development that's going full-swing and adding to the skyline.
- Victory Park is another neighborhood for heaven's sake.
- The West Village is a neighborhood created from nothing. The De La Vega is supposed to be the West Village part two. AND it's supposed to have a highrise with a Central Market on the bottom floor.
- Old Parkland is an 8-acre site that was once the original Parkland Hospital. It got redeveloped into the most expensive office space to rent in North Texas. You couldn't even tell if they were built 2 years or 200 years ago.
- The Design District is renovating its old showroom spaces, adding residential units, opened a Virgin Hotel, and contains some really nice creative office spaces. It probably has the most intact 1940-1950 style industrial buildings in Texas. Absolutely cool neighborhood to check out, but I bet you wouldn't say the same thing 10 years ago.
And even if it doesn't, why discredit the smaller projects going on en masse? I don't think undermining smaller projects can hold up a good argument when they are making a significant impact on the cityscape (when done at such a large scale).
The Epic in Deep Ellum is only 8 acres, but it has attracted a regional office for Uber. 3000 employees with a salary of over $100K.
Residential projects, such as donut-style apartments will naturally take up more acres. Just yesterday, a residential development with a grocery store below it will take up almost 6 acres.
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Atlanta Streetcar suburbs were annexed into the city. I assume Dallas based on the percentage of growth numbers for Dallas was die to constant annexation.
Dallas Aneexation growth percentage by Decade
1870-329%
1880-245%
1890-287%
1900-12%
1910-119%
1920-72%
1930-69%
1940-9%
1950-47%
Thats from Wiki.Nowhere in Atlanta history has it seen tripple digit population growth and most cities dont grow naturally that much without annexation with those kinds of numbers
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I agree with you on this.
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Here is Walscore methodology.Which one do you think it is?
Id bet its not enough mixed use development.Problably lack of housing if too many people are driving there.
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If I had to guess it would be not enough Mixed Use.housing based on populationof the area.
Even so its only one neighborhood you question.Those listed for Atlanta I feel were spot on, Its not like the said Deep Ellum wasnt walkable. According to them it is but just not in top 5.
Hardly a reason to discount the entire list.
That project is already underway.The massive Norfolk Southern building is really gonna be a vital part of not only the entire Gulch project but already its connected to Castleberry Hill . CH is also going through major developments like with the new Hard Rock Hotel thats almost completed.
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Does Deep Ellum deserve to be at number 12?! Arguably the most intact and potentially urban part of Dallas that's continuing to infill and restore its historic buildings?! Come on... the overall Walk Score is based on other factors besides the walkability portion. That's the point. It deserves to be in the upper 90's.
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There are so many projects in Atlanta just like Dallas but as I stated before the size of these projects in Atanta are colossal.
I think what you maybe dont know is that within the perimeter area,there is a ton of undevelopmed land in Atlanta. Areas that look rural in some cases.Like Northwest Atlanta.Areas like this are attracting large scale developments just a few minutes from the center of town. Atlanta maybe only 130 something aq miles but a lot of it is not developed or sparsely developed,
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Oh trust me, I understand: https://www.commercialcafe.com/blog/...-major-us-cbd/
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You guys are focusing on Dallas downtown as like you said it hardy had one 20 years ago.
im saying Atlanta is not only infilling in its CBD but is expanding beyond those areas and creating entirely new areas like West Midtown.
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Uhhh... that's a rather confusing statement. Dallas is literally creating something where nothing existed. No need for an explanation there. Whatever Atlanta is doing, don't think Dallas is just taking the other route.
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That area was really nothing but industrial until little over 10 years ago.Now its one of the hottest areas in the city.
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Design District or Deep Ellum come to mind?
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The Beltline runs just Northwest of it and it has brought a another new park that is almost completed as a part.Its over 400 acres and bigger than Piedmont Park.
Its connected to the infamous Bankhead area where a major development called Quarry Yards adjacent to the Bankhead MArta Station .Its rising along natural creeks and trails that connect it with the Beltline and the newly opened Proctor Creek Greenway. One big area connecting two big projects in an area that was industrial impoverished sparsely populated area overgrown with kudzu and foilage over run down warehouses
about 2-3 miles from the CBD
https://atlanta.curbed.com/2018/7/6/...nkhead-texiera
One other area I had to go back and add is the Aerotropolis Development(airport City).
Its 320 acres!Already Porsche NA has moved there and two new luxury hotels as well
https://atlanta.curbed.com/2019/2/12...sfield-jackson
So yes while I agree Dallas transformation is remarkable,I dont see how Atlanta's several massive multi- acre
redevelopments sites in areas that just simply didnt exist before are any less trans formative.
Only difference is Dallas is transforming its downtown while Atlanta is improving,and growing its downtown in addition to totally new neighborhoods like AS that had to have its own zip code it was so big.
Its not just buildings.
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As I said earlier: Dallas, Atlanta, and Houston are doing remarkable things in their entire 'core' area. There are projects in Dallas that are causing a multiplier effect in its respective locale. Simply look up the impact a simple grocery store can have on a neighborhood. Dallas is currently about to win a huge battle in its CBD, and new developments are on the horizon. This reality to developers is making them retool their strategy, given the amount of hard work the citizens of Dallas have placed in its core.
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I feel Atlanta is doing a better job of creating a better urban environment that is more aesthetically pleasing with a better sense of community building. Such as emphasis on the quality of life by making these developments accessible. Almost like Sims building like the game.
The street capes,public art installations,illumative lighting .The emphasis on aesthetics that compliment these new developments.
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Absolutely! There are pedestrian-focused projects occurring simultaneously with the sheer amount of development to truly complement the work being done in the core. I completely love it and I know Atlanta is making some great strides on this. I know Dallas is doing its due diligence.
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Anyway I hope this post wasnt too all over the place.You had a lot I tried to answer
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Hahaha! It's a great discussion and I like your historical references.
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