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I think we can all objectively agree that Seattle and Philadelphia are still on two different scales, although certainly Seattle is catching up quickly.
Philadelphia by all objective measures meets the threshold of one of the most impressive cores in North America based on structural and population density over a large area, and this extends outside of the traditional Center City boundaries.
Anyone also following recent development patterns in the city would note that 4-10 story "midrise" projects are absolutely being proposed and constructed in neighborhoods across the city, far outside of Center City, particularly along major commercial corridors.
Two- or three-story developments now tend to be the exception, rather than the rule for Philadelphia moving forward.
Here is a 13 sq. mile urban core area for Philadelphia and Boston.
Boston Neighborhoods:
North: North End
South: Dorchester
East: Mission Hill
West: City Point
Philadelphia Neighborhoods:
North: Yorktown
South: Lower Moyamensing
East: Penn’s Landing
West: University City
Also, I think Vancouver and DC both have a hard time being in top 7 for North America, no? Maybe top ten, but almost certainly not top 7.
It’s an attempt to add facts to a debate that has been subjective for the past three days. I was discussing this with another poster trying to get an apples to apples comparison based on facts and real neighborhoods covering an actual footprint that can be measured versus what people have been doing. This was the post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
A good comparison would be to draw an equal distance and compare the development and vibrancy in that area. What would a 13 sq. mile area over Seattle proper look like compared to a 13 sq. mile area over DC/Philly/Boston? For continuity, the entire area has to be in city proper. Actually, this is probably a good comparison for all these cities mentioned.
For DC, that would run from Columbia Heights to the north, Buzzard Point/Navy Yard to the south, Foggy Bottom to the West, and H Street/Atlas District to the east.
What neighborhoods would that distance cover N/S/E/W for Seattle? Google maps has a measure distance tool that will allow you to get a 3.6 mile x 3.6 mile measurement so you know which neighborhoods are covered over that distance.
Then we can do the same for Boston and Philly.
I’m not sure whether DC and Vancouver should be included, but we need to use the same measurements for the cities to see exactly what is covered over the same distance and what isn’t. You can’t eyeball distance for an urban core, we have to actually measure. I bet most people would be shocked when cities are held up to each other apples to apples.
These cities are designed differently so your testing criteria isn't fair.
For Vancouver try:
North Vancouver
Kitsilano
Brentwood Town Centre
Metrotown Centre
Edit: And I willl add Mount Pleasant as well.
How would you use North Vancouver when you have a massive body of water separating it from the rest of the city. People can’t walk across a harbor. An urban core is cohesive, Vancouver Harbor is massive so how do you justify that?
Those are simply high rise clusters, like Miami etc. It doesn't compare to the urbanity of a DC from the street level.
Vancouver looks a lot like Arlington, VA across the river from DC. Both in it's high rise residential areas, and it's back street residential neighborhoods. Neither have the urban street front for an extended stretch uninterrupted beyond a few blocks to compare to DC, Bos, or Philly etc. Vancouver's an impressive skyline of high rises however.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,560,868 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
How would you use North Vancouver when you have a massive body of water separating it from the rest of the city. People can’t walk across a harbor. An urban core is cohesive, Vancouver Harbor is massive so how do you justify that?
How would you use North Vancouver when you have a massive body of water separating it from the rest of the city. People can’t walk across a harbor. An urban core is cohesive, Vancouver Harbor is massive so how do you justify that?
Nothing about the neighbourhoods you've cited for DC scream "cohesive".
The urban core of Vancouver on the peninsula is significantly more built up and dense than in DC, and outside of the urban core you still have strong pockets of urbanity in the areas I mentioned.
North Vancouver is tightly integrated with downtown, with bus and seabus service and countless daily commuters and residents interacting on both sides of the straight.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,560,868 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Differential
Nothing about the neighbourhoods you've cited for DC scream "cohesive".
The urban core of Vancouver on the peninsula is significantly more built up and dense than in DC, and outside of the urban core you still have strong pockets of urbanity in the areas I mentioned.
North Vancouver is tightly integrated with downtown, with bus and seabus service and countless daily commuters and residents interacting on both sides of the straight.
Neither are a part of their cities downtown core extension, they are independent and separated from them. Although Silver Spring is more directly connected as you can walk, take bike lanes, or Metro only a few stops without crossing water.
Nothing about the neighbourhoods you've cited for DC scream "cohesive".
The urban core of Vancouver on the peninsula is significantly more built up and dense than in DC, and outside of the urban core you still have strong pockets of urbanity in the areas I mentioned.
North Vancouver is tightly integrated with downtown, with bus and seabus service and countless daily commuters and residents interacting on both sides of the straight.
I don’t think you understand what I mean by cohesive. Cohesive means unobstructed. Brooklyn can’t be included in the core of NYC with Manhattan. They are separated by a huge river. You can’t walk outside your house to downtown Vancouver from North Vancouver. You can’t even swim it. Vancouver harbor is 1.48 miles wide from dock to dock. What is your explanation for that 1.48 mile distance of water?
A good comparison would be to draw an equal distance and compare the development and vibrancy in that area. What would a 13 sq. mile area over Seattle proper look like compared to a 13 sq. mile area over DC/Philly/Boston? For continuity, the entire area has to be in city proper. Actually, this is probably a good comparison for all these cities mentioned.
For DC, that would run from Columbia Heights to the north, Buzzard Point/Navy Yard to the south, Foggy Bottom to the West, and H Street/Atlas District to the east.
What neighborhoods would that distance cover N/S/E/W for Seattle? Google maps has a measure distance tool that will allow you to get a 3.6 mile x 3.6 mile measurement so you know which neighborhoods are covered over that distance.
Then we can do the same for Boston and Philly.
Seattle wouldn't be on their level in 13 square miles. But it gets close at 5, or the 4.5-sm area I find useful due to tract boundaries. Outside of that, single-family becomes predominant.
Outside the core, urbanity is in nodes and corridors around town due to our "urban village" growth concept, but that's collectively 15% of the city, going on 20% due to recent upzones, with SFRs more like 65% going on 60%.
As for city limits, you're being unfair to Boston. Much of Cambridge is part of the urban core. Administrative boundaries aren't relevant.
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