Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Habana | Plaza de la Revolución, Centro Habana, La Habana Vieja, Regla, Diez de Octubre, Cerro
21.6 sq mi | 5 + 2 + 2 + 3.6 + 5 + 4
821,841 | 61,631 + 158,151 + 97,984 + 44,431 + 227,293 + 132,351 (2004)
Chicago | Near North Side, Loop, Near South Side, Lake View, Lincoln Park, West Town, Near West Side
22.72 sq mi | 2.72 + 1.58 + 1.75 + 3.16 + 3.19 + 4.57 + 5.75
463,947 | 88,893 + 35,880 + 23,620 + 100,470 + 67,710 + 84,502 + 62,872 (2017)
Chicago | Near North Side, Loop, Near South Side, Lake View, Lincoln Park, West Town, Near West Side
22.72 sq mi | 2.72 + 1.58 + 1.75 + 3.16 + 3.19 + 4.57 + 5.75
463,947 | 88,893 + 35,880 + 23,620 + 100,470 + 67,710 + 84,502 + 62,872 (2017)
FYI those are 2017 numbers. I have the 2018 numbers and also I have the land area numbers by square meter which convert to square mile. In 2018 the areas you used have a population of 467,252. Reminder that the 2nd densest community area in Chicago is Edgewater, which is a good 8 or 10 miles north of the center of the Loop. So, if you start with the Near South Side and go north along the lakefront until the north end of the city where some of the densest parts of the city are and also include a few other areas next to those like Lincoln Square and North Center:
Chicago | Near North Side, Loop, Lake View, Lincoln Park, Uptown, Edgewater, Rogers Park, Lincoln Square, North Center, Near South Side
22.7428 sq mi | 2.6948 + 1.555 + 3.12 + 3.097 + 2.319 + 1.721 + 1.845 + 2.555 + 2.044 + 1.792
568,965 people | 89,995 + 37,647 + 100,547 + 68,697 + 58,424 + 57,022 + 54,872 + 41,713 + 35,705 + 24,343
Density is 25,017.37 ppsm. If you started in Armour Square instead south of Near South Side (Chinatown) and replaced North Center and Lincoln Square with West Ridge (next to Rogers Park) then it's 582,478 people in 22.68 sq mi (25,681.55 ppsm).
I think it's fairly obvious for those who are familiar at all with cities like Mexico City and Havana that they should be below NYC and above the likes of Chicago. I'm curious what Toronto is for this. I know that the downtown neighborhoods make up 7 sq miles and have a population of just around 200K - 30K ppsm. By comparison, Near North, Near South, and the Loop in Chicago is 6 sq miles and has 152K people which is 25K ppsm. Curious as to what it could be expanded out to 22 sq mi.
Last edited by marothisu; 04-01-2020 at 11:39 AM..
FYI those are 2017 numbers. I have the 2018 numbers and also I have the land area numbers by square meter which convert to square mile. In 2018 the areas you used have a population of 467,252. Reminder that the 2nd densest community area in Chicago is Edgewater, which is a good 8 or 10 miles north of the center of the Loop. So, if you start with the Near South Side and go north along the lakefront until the north end of the city where some of the densest parts of the city are and also include a few other areas next to those like Lincoln Square and North Center:
Chicago | Near North Side, Loop, Lake View, Lincoln Park, Uptown, Edgewater, Rogers Park, Lincoln Square, North Center, Near South Side
22.7428 sq mi | 2.6948 + 1.555 + 3.12 + 3.097 + 2.319 + 1.721 + 1.845 + 2.555 + 2.044 + 1.792
568,965 people | 89,995 + 37,647 + 100,547 + 68,697 + 58,424 + 57,022 + 54,872 + 41,713 + 35,705 + 24,343
Density is 25,017.37 ppsm
Thanks!
I chose things based partially on making it slightly more "blobular" and it seemed to me that including the Near West Side was important because of everything it had there that were essential to the city, though I understand the rationale for going up the lakeshore since it's very dense and much of the transit service is geared towards such. If I get around to updates, I'll include your schema as an alternative grouping.
I chose things based partially on making it slightly more "blobular" and it seemed to me that including the Near West Side was important because of everything it had there that were essential to the city, though I understand the rationale for going up the lakeshore since it's very dense and much of the transit service is geared towards such. If I get around to updates, I'll include your schema as an alternative grouping.
Near West Side is a huge community area that is the same size in physical area as Near North Side + Loop + 80% of Near South Side. The part of West Loop, which is a neighborhood of that, has started to become an extension of downtown but it's definitely too young in the 2017 or 2018 data to show any huge jump in population. I think you'll see it more in the 2020 census or 2020, 2021, and 2022 ACS. There were a few very large residential developments there which just recently finished or are finishing such as this and this which together have about 950 new units but I don't think anybody is living there yet as they either just opened or just completed. A lot of that area has had a lot of office developments - residential is now following. I think in the years to come it'll be wise to count it in this way, but I think 2017 and even 2018 are a bit too early for that. In the 2018 ACS that whole area has a density of a little over 13K ppsm. If that area added 5000 more residents, the density would be pushing 20K ppsm.
Those figures are all well and dandy but they only paint a partial picture. LA has a 14.5 sq. miles section of city that has a population of 450k.. that still doesn't make it more urban the Philly, Boston or DC etc..
Speaking of Boston & DC... they blow past Vancouvers density during they daytime. DC damn near doubles its population and gallons to something like ~1.2 million in 61 sq. miles
Again no one is saying Vancouver isn't bustling or dense, but that isn't the argument. It's which is most urbanely built "core"
Seattle & Vancouver are almost carbon copies of each other in terms look and feel in their downtowns. Neither feels or looks more inherently urban than the other and I've been to Seattle and know people who have been to both that could attest that. Their both glass condo parks.. the more urban "Miami's" of the Pacific North West
Far is relative... and when we are talking about the top ~15 cities, "not too far" can be the difference between top 7 or top 20.
There is no such thing as "too far" in Baltimore. It's just there; always, ever present and the city never lets you forget. There is no urban let up which is why it and the other 4 larger east coast cities feel so vastly different from than any city not named Chicago or SF.
Vancouver is simply never going to have this type of consistent density at 3 miles out or +4 miles out.
Ugh Seattles downtown is 100% on the same tier as Vancouvers. The city currently has +21 buildings over 150m and +90 over 100m. Baltimore can't touch neither's downtowns in terms of size, but what it lacks in tons of 20-30 story glass condo parks, it more than makes up for it endless seas of 3-2 story row-homes that radiate miles upon miles from the harbor unimpeded.
The whole issue that everyone is having is we have zero definition/metric/guideline for what a said urban core comprises.
Sure if we are just using official downtown, Vancouver/Seattle are going to feel more urban, If we included the adjacent surrounding downtown neighborhoods (which the thread seems to be doing), than Baltimore 100% is the more urban built city.
I live in Seattle and visit Vancouver multiple times a year - if we're talking urbanity and vibrancy their urban cores are not in the same tier and Vancouver's core doesn't fall anywhere close to top 20. At worst its top 12.
Some numbers below on Vancouver's urban core, which can be considered to be several clearly defined adjacent areas - Downtown, West End, Downtown Eastside, and Fairview.
Combined these areas are just over 5 square miles and have a population approaching 185,000. I don't have data on the built environment in terms of structural density but it is extremely urban and structurally dense save for a small section on the south part of Fairview. This area is extremely pedestrian- and transit-oriented and is nothing like even the most urban parts of LA - the rail transit numbers (550K daily ridership for a 2.5 million metro vs. 350K for a 10 million metro) and extreme differences in street-level vibrancy bear that out.
This absolutely demolishes Seattle or Baltimore's urban core on virtually every metric even if you include inner neighborhoods. As you said, it depends on how we're defining urban core - if it's the entire city then yes Baltimore has a significantly more consistent urban fabric, but if we're talking about about urban core as in Downtown and immediate surroundings (which is my understanding), then Vancouver wins that competition handily and is at worst top 12 in North America. It's also the clear #3 in Canada after Montreal and Toronto and #1 in North America for a metro with under 3 million people.
As an aside: There's no doubt and no one is denying that outside of that urban core Vancouver's residential urban fabric becomes a lot spottier - make no mistake it is still dense but there are a lot of areas that have a suburban-ish feel. The contrast is pretty stark but that's mostly because of how built up and urban the core is. (Again, I'd say the same about Toronto although as you noted its urban core is clearly much bigger than 5 square miles). But even then in most of these suburban-ish areas of Vancouver you can walk to a dense commercial corridor or node typically within ~10 minutes.
I think it's fairly obvious for those who are familiar at all with cities like Mexico City and Havana that they should be below NYC and above the likes of Chicago. I'm curious what Toronto is for this. I know that the downtown neighborhoods make up 7 sq miles and have a population of just around 200K - 30K ppsm. By comparison, Near North, Near South, and the Loop in Chicago is 6 sq miles and has 152K people which is 25K ppsm. Curious as to what it could be expanded out to 22 sq mi.
I think it would drop quite drastically outside of that 7 sq mi, as Toronto's dense pockets are the highrise clusters such as the immediate downtown core, and then again a few areas going North along Yonge, which extends quite a way.
Aside from that, the other neighborhoods aren't terribly dense, and this includes those directly East and West of Downtown. It doesn't have much in terms of midrise development, nor of the typical tightly-packed 3-story rowhomes seen in other older NA cities.
Near West Side is a huge community area that is the same size in physical area as Near North Side + Loop + 80% of Near South Side. The part of West Loop, which is a neighborhood of that, has started to become an extension of downtown but it's definitely too young in the 2017 or 2018 data to show any huge jump in population. I think you'll see it more in the 2020 census or 2020, 2021, and 2022 ACS. There were a few very large residential developments there which just recently finished or are finishing such as this and this which together have about 950 new units but I don't think anybody is living there yet as they either just opened or just completed. A lot of that area has had a lot of office developments - residential is now following. I think in the years to come it'll be wise to count it in this way, but I think 2017 and even 2018 are a bit too early for that. In the 2018 ACS that whole area has a density of a little over 13K ppsm. If that area added 5000 more residents, the density would be pushing 20K ppsm.
Yea, it's a very large community and includes a lot of other neighborhoods--there were some odd fits for Mexico City and Havana as well, and it's arguable that downtown Brooklyn is more an extension of the Manhattan CBDs than Washington Heights or Inwood that are actually in Manhattan are. It's just hard to get it perfect is all.
Near West Side also includes the University of Illinois Chicago, the United Center, and the Illinois Medical District. It's a lot of interesting stuff there. Hopefully it fills in well and soon.
I think it would drop quite drastically outside of that 7 sq mi, as Toronto's dense pockets are the highrise clusters such as the immediate downtown core, and then again a few areas going North along Yonge, which extends quite a way.
Aside from that, the other neighborhoods aren't terribly dense, and this includes those directly East and West of Downtown. It doesn't have much in terms of midrise development, nor of the typical tightly-packed 3-story rowhomes seen in other older NA cities.
I was in Toronto in October - but hadn't been there for years before that. It would be interesting to see. I bet it wouldn't be too different from Chicago in terms of density. I have the 2016 profiles by neighborhood in Toronto. If someone tells me which ones to use I can calculate it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Yea, it's a very large community and includes a lot of other neighborhoods--there were some odd fits for Mexico City and Havana as well, and it's arguable that downtown Brooklyn is more an extension of the Manhattan CBDs than Washington Heights or Inwood that are actually in Manhattan are. It's just hard to get it perfect is all.
Near West Side also includes the University of Illinois Chicago, the United Center, and the Illinois Medical District. It's a lot of interesting stuff there. Hopefully it fills in well and soon.
Yeah it's very hard to get a perfect fit or anything. Washington Heights is 120K ppsm while Inwood is around 50K ppsm. By comparison, Downtown Brooklyn is something like 16K ppsm, and both Cobble Hill and Brooklyn Heights are around 25K ppsm. From a standpoint of those densities plus the fact that there's a river separation Manhattan and Brooklyn, it wouldn't make any sense to lump any part of Brooklyn in with that.
Now, it would be interesting to do the same thing but only for Brooklyn and maybe even around Long Island City in Queens...but each separately. Long Island City is a lot newer and being built up and the fabric around it is a bit different depending on which direction you head. Some directions are definitely a lot more built up people -wise than others.
1. NYC
2. Mexico City
3. Chicago
4. Toronto
5. Montreal
6. Boston
7. Philadelphia
You realize that the only city in US and Canada outside of NYC to have tracts over 100k ppsm is San Francisco. SF has 6 tracts over 100k ppsm and 4 neighborhoods greater than 57k ppsm. SF is 2nd to 4th in North America in my opinion along with Mexico city and Chicago
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
