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Presidio doesn't have much residential density--it's just that a chunk of that massive acreage it has is actually housing that's not very densely built or are offices. It really stood out to me the first time I visited and biked around, because for some reason I thought it was all parkland and if there were structures, they would have been public structures of sorts.
Yep - I've been there. I have family who has lived in SF since the 1920s. I'm a fan of the city and the parks and city is beautiful. In terms of density though, yes it has some pretty dense areas but in terms of the entire thing after a little bit - it and downtown+north/northwest side of Chicago become more similar than people want to admit in terms of statistical density.
On another note, since Toronto and Chicago have some similar densities for large sections, I thought it would be interesting to compare them at various density clips. It's not a core thing necessarily though both cities are denser in further flung areas than a lot of cities are in their cores anyway. This is by neighborhood which is kind of arbitrary but it's the percentage of people living in official neighborhoods (or community area in Chicago's case) at various densities.
100K+ ppsm
Toronto: 0.68% of the city | 0.16 sq mi | 18,615 people
Chicago: 0%
50K-60K ppsm
Toronto: 2.23% | 1.05 sq mi | 60,998 people
Chicago: 0%
40K-50K ppsm
Toronto: 0.97% | 0.64 sq mi | 26,486 people
Chicago: 0%
30K-40K ppsm
Chicago: 9.03% | 7.54 sq mi | 247,564 people
Toronto: 3.73% | 3.03 sq mi | 101,969 people
25K-30K ppsm
Toronto: 6.45% | 6.68 sq mi | 176,267 people
Chicago: 5.97% | 6.07 sq mi | 163,639 people
20K-25K ppsm
Chicago: 13.19% | 16.91 sq mi | 361,435 people
Toronto: 11.6% | 14.08 sq mi | 316,869 people
15K-20K ppsm
Chicago: 24.82% | 40.04 sq mi | 680,272 people
Toronto: 18.39% | 29.27 sq mi | 502,284 people
10K-15K ppsm
Toronto: 26.59% | 61.43 sq mi | 726,355 people
Chicago: 24.61% | 55.6 sq mi | 674,574 people
5K-10K ppsm
Toronto: 25.63% | 94.75 sq mi | 700,238 people
Chicago: 20.06% | 69.98 sq mi | 549,840 people
Under 5K ppsm
Toronto: 3.72% | 32.26 sq mi | 101,490 people
Chicago: 2.33% | 34.17 sq mi | 63,869 people
Last edited by marothisu; 04-01-2020 at 07:20 PM..
Yep - I've been there. I have family who has lived in SF since the 1920s. I'm a fan of the city and the parks and city is beautiful. In terms of density though, yes it has some pretty dense areas but in terms of the entire thing after a little bit - it and downtown+north/northwest side of Chicago become more similar than people want to admit in terms of statistical density.
On another note, since Toronto and Chicago have some similar densities for large sections, I thought it would be interesting to compare them at various density clips. It's not a core thing necessarily though both cities are denser in further flung areas than a lot of cities are in their cores anyway. This is by neighborhood which is kind of arbitrary but it's the percentage of people living in official neighborhoods (or community area in Chicago's case) at various densities.
100K+ ppsm
Toronto: 0.68% of the city | 0.16 sq mi | 18,615 people
Chicago: 0%
50K-60K ppsm
Toronto: 2.23% | 1.05 sq mi | 60,998 people
Chicago: 0%
40K-50K ppsm
Toronto: 0.97% | 0.64 sq mi | 26,486 people
Chicago: 0%
30K-40K ppsm
Chicago: 9.03% | 7.54 sq mi | 247,564 people
Toronto: 3.73% | 3.03 sq mi | 101,969 people
25K-30K ppsm
Toronto: 6.45% | 6.68 sq mi | 176,267 people
Chicago: 5.97% | 6.07 sq mi | 163,639 people
20K-25K ppsm
Chicago: 13.19% | 16.91 sq mi | 361,435 people
Toronto: 11.6% | 14.08 sq mi | 316,869 people
15K-20K ppsm
Chicago: 24.82% | 40.04 sq mi | 680,272 people
Toronto: 18.39% | 29.27 sq mi | 502,284 people
10K-15K ppsm
Toronto: 26.59% | 61.43 sq mi | 726,355 people
Chicago: 24.61% | 55.6 sq mi | 674,574 people
5K-10K ppsm
Toronto: 25.63% | 94.75 sq mi | 700,238 people
Chicago: 20.06% | 69.98 sq mi | 549,840 people
Under 5K ppsm
Toronto: 3.72% | 32.26 sq mi | 101,490 people
Chicago: 2.33% | 34.17 sq mi | 63,869 people
These data are much appreciated and very informative. Would you be able to do a Seattle/Vancouver comparison? And maybe include Boston as well?
Yep - I've been there. I have family who has lived in SF since the 1920s. I'm a fan of the city and the parks and city is beautiful. In terms of density though, yes it has some pretty dense areas but in terms of the entire thing after a little bit - it and downtown+north/northwest side of Chicago become more similar than people want to admit in terms of statistical density.
On another note, since Toronto and Chicago have some similar densities for large sections, I thought it would be interesting to compare them at various density clips. It's not a core thing necessarily though both cities are denser in further flung areas than a lot of cities are in their cores anyway. This is by neighborhood which is kind of arbitrary but it's the percentage of people living in official neighborhoods (or community area in Chicago's case) at various densities.
100K+ ppsm
Toronto: 0.68% of the city | 0.16 sq mi | 18,615 people
Chicago: 0%
50K-60K ppsm
Toronto: 2.23% | 1.05 sq mi | 60,998 people
Chicago: 0%
40K-50K ppsm
Toronto: 0.97% | 0.64 sq mi | 26,486 people
Chicago: 0%
30K-40K ppsm
Chicago: 9.03% | 7.54 sq mi | 247,564 people
Toronto: 3.73% | 3.03 sq mi | 101,969 people
25K-30K ppsm
Toronto: 6.45% | 6.68 sq mi | 176,267 people
Chicago: 5.97% | 6.07 sq mi | 163,639 people
20K-25K ppsm
Chicago: 13.19% | 16.91 sq mi | 361,435 people
Toronto: 11.6% | 14.08 sq mi | 316,869 people
15K-20K ppsm
Chicago: 24.82% | 40.04 sq mi | 680,272 people
Toronto: 18.39% | 29.27 sq mi | 502,284 people
10K-15K ppsm
Toronto: 26.59% | 61.43 sq mi | 726,355 people
Chicago: 24.61% | 55.6 sq mi | 674,574 people
5K-10K ppsm
Toronto: 25.63% | 94.75 sq mi | 700,238 people
Chicago: 20.06% | 69.98 sq mi | 549,840 people
Under 5K ppsm
Toronto: 3.72% | 32.26 sq mi | 101,490 people
Chicago: 2.33% | 34.17 sq mi | 63,869 people
How recent are those numbers? Some cities are growing explosively.
The latest I could find for Toronto was 2016. Most of the US numbers being used in the thread are 2017 or 2018. In the case of Toronto, I'm sure in 2018 there are more people living in higher density tracts than 2016.
You mean dense? Toronto is more dense, per the posted data. It has higher overall density, and more high-density tracks.
Chicago may or may not be more urban, but that's a different, more subjective issue.
More people live in dense housing tracts in Chicago and more people live in low density tracts in Toronto. More people live in super dense neighborhoods in Toronto but that’s a small portion of the city. Edge Chicago
You’re talking about 3% of Toronto living in 1.5 square miles..you can’t be serious if you thin that’s remotely representative of the city.
You mean dense? Toronto is more dense, per the posted data. It has higher overall density, and more high-density tracks.
Chicago may or may not be more urban, but that's a different, more subjective issue.
That's not an accurate statement. A more accurate statement is that Toronto has a small section of its city living in official neighborhoods at high/high-ish densities that Chicago does not have in official neighborhoods, but a higher percentage of Chicago is living in semi dense areas versus Toronto
20K - 40K ppsm
Chicago: 28.19% | 30.52 sq mi | 772,638 people
Toronto: 21.79% | 23.78 sq mi | 595,105 people
The difference here is nearly 7%, which is more than the nearly 4% difference of the > 50K ppsm difference.
Furthermore, these neighborhoods are arbitrary no matter where they are. The community areas in Chicago have multiple neighborhoods, but those are not official by government. The Toronto data is more like that and not necessarily like community areas. The neighborhood in Toronto with > 100K ppsm is only 0.16 sq miles, which is only 102 acres. The size of a park. I don't think Chicago can compete with that necessarily but close.
I think you'll find that more granular neighborhoods in Chicago which would correspond with those in Toronto would rate like that.
For example, the area of Chicago bounded by LaSalle, Chicago, State, and Division + State, Michigan, Chicago, and Bellevue is 16,031 people in 0.22 sq miles with a density of 70,817.6 ppsm. That physical area (0.22 sq mi) is almost the same as the Regent Park neighborhood in Toronto which has a density of 43,719 ppsm. That area might very well be an actual neighborhood in Chicago but it's not "official" so I can't use it necessarily.
A better comparison would be by tracts. The only reason I didn't do this for Toronto is because I don't have tract level data. There are 103,804 people living in Census Tracts in Chicago that are > 50K ppsm in 1.52 sq mi. I don't know what it is for Toronto, but the number of people living in neighborhoods in Toronto > 50K ppsm is 79,613 people at 1.21 sq mi.
Density wise, I think the cities are pretty similar but Chicago statistically is actually denser if you break it down especially by tract level.
Here's the Manhattan-size comparison with Chicago listing both the blobular format from me and marothisu's lakefront format. The idea behind this was to do a roughly apples-to-apples comparison using existing divisions within cities and using Manhattan, likely the most urban center of North America, as the point of reference for physical land area and as a relatively coherent entity.
City | Divisions
Land Area
Population (Year)
New York City | Manhattan
22.83 sq mi
1,628,701 people (2018)
Habana | Plaza de la Revolución, Centro Habana, La Habana Vieja, Regla, Diez de Octubre, Cerro
21.6 sq mi | 5 + 2 + 2 + 3.6 + 5 + 4
821,841 people | 61,631 + 158,151 + 97,984 + 44,431 + 227,293 + 132,351 (2004)
Chicago | Near North Side, Loop, Lake View, Lincoln Park, Uptown, Edgewater, Rogers Park, Lincoln Square, North Center, Near South Side
22.7428 sq mi | 2.6948 + 1.555 + 3.12 + 3.097 + 2.319 + 1.721 + 1.845 + 2.555 + 2.044 + 1.792
568,965 people | 89,995 + 37,647 + 100,547 + 68,697 + 58,424 + 57,022 + 54,872 + 41,713 + 35,705 + 24,343 (2018)
Chicago | Near North Side, Loop, Near South Side, Lake View, Lincoln Park, West Town, Near West Side
22.72 sq mi | 2.72 + 1.58 + 1.75 + 3.16 + 3.19 + 4.57 + 5.75
463,947 people | 88,893 + 35,880 + 23,620 + 100,470 + 67,710 + 84,502 + 62,872 (2017)
Also, in case anyone is looking to do so, here are some some potential avenues for making ~22-23 square mile areas contiguous with the CBD for other cities:
More people live in dense housing tracts in Chicago and more people live in low density tracts in Toronto.
Where are you getting that?
The data show that Toronto clearly has more people living at higher densities. There are 100k Toronto residents living in densities that don't exist in Chicago (assuming the posted data are correct).
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