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Nice, thanks for the advice. I'd probably only do a car rental if I can pick up and drop-off near the train stations since driving in and out of NYC, or I-95 in general, is sometimes not a fantastically fun time. Bikes sound like a good idea!
I know this is a pretty specific question, but does CT or these cities in particular have rules against electric-assist bikes?
Not aware of any rules against e-bike in CT. CT does have -e-bike law passed recently so that there are rules of that. But other than that, should be fine.
Moto-cycle, regular bike, e-bikes are all quite popular in rural area. This year I found the noise near my mountain house in CT a lot more than before probably because people are sick of this lock down and are going out on bikes more than usual in rural areas.
I agree that demand for Worcester/Providence or Brattleboro/New London type of passenger rail is not there. They won't be built.
The more interesting, and probably new england new rail is between Westerly/New London connecting SLE and MBTA in RI. This would be more interesting as westerly RI is close to Mystic/New London and infact, many local folks view Westerly RI and New London CT as one same region. Both RI and CT are supporting the link and if fed can provide some money, there might be some ridership demand there too considering the work from home type of new trends post-pandemic.
The real new rail is East West between Springfield and Worcester, which would have huge demand from both CT and MA linking NYC metro and Boston metro in all commuter rails. This would be game changer post-pandemic.
Could a Worcester to Providence line be possible if it goes all the way to New Bedford?
For example, it starts in Worcester, one or two stops before Providence, then continues to Fall River and New Bedford? I feel like that could revolutionize public transit in the area allowing people to cross two states without having to go to Boston first.
That way Providence becomes a new New England hub and Worcester and New Bedford get better connectivity.
Could a Worcester to Providence line be possible if it goes all the way to New Bedford?
For example, it starts in Worcester, one or two stops before Providence, then continues to Fall River and New Bedford? I feel like that could revolutionize public transit in the area allowing people to cross two states without having to go to Boston first.
That way Providence becomes a new New England hub and Worcester and New Bedford get better connectivity.
Well, they're building a new station for Central Falls / Pawtucket just north of Providence and the existing tracks from Providence to Worcester would go through there as well as Woonsocket (home of CVS). Going from Providence to Fall River and New Bedford would be interesting, but there's no existing track and right-of-way to run on from Providence to Fall River, so that'd be pretty costly. Only way I can think of that coming into existence is if there's a massive federal push for funding of transit and I-195 just happens to need a revamping in that part of it such that rail could be placed in its median for a stretch which isn't super likely.
Just a Worcester-Woonsocket-Central Falls-Providence maybe to T.F. Green or beyond doesn't sound too wild though and there would be an existing rail and right-of-way.
I also wonder if you've guys seen previous Amtrak Northeast Corridor proposals from Amtrak in 2010 that had high-speed trains and new tracks going from potentially the Danbury branch up to Hartford before cutting east to Woonsocket? It was essentially trying to avoid the winding CT shoreline route (which would presumably give track capacity over to a lot more regional service) and would have put the Acela as well as more local service on a new set of straighter tracks. It was pretty wild:
In that odd case where Woonsocket is the main high-speed rail station in Rhode Island, then a Worcester-Providence connection by way of Woonsocket in order to make that high-speed rail connection would probably make a lot of sense.
Could a Worcester to Providence line be possible if it goes all the way to New Bedford?
For example, it starts in Worcester, one or two stops before Providence, then continues to Fall River and New Bedford? I feel like that could revolutionize public transit in the area allowing people to cross two states without having to go to Boston first.
That way Providence becomes a new New England hub and Worcester and New Bedford get better connectivity.
Just looking at real data, ridership is not there even if adding New Bedford/Fall Rider to be mix of Worcester/Providence. New Bedford/Fall Rider are just a nearby towns from providence.
The real problem, for whatever the reason, MBTA commuter line ridership is much poorer than CT equivalent. Just give you a number, providence line is said to be busiest of commuter line in the whole MBTA system, that is only at 25,728 daily boarding on 2018 ridership number according to wikipedia information. That is poor even between Boston/Providence.
As comparison, New Haven MNR line between GCT/Stamford/New Haven line has 125,000 weekday daily ridership before pandemic. Now I figured 2/3 is between Stamford/GCT because they have extra slow trains and more packed on trains, a bit more shorter lines to South Norwalk, New Canaan Danbury etc. 1/3 of that ridership should be between Stamford/New Haven. Whatever the number to look at it, New Haven station is much bigger station than Providence or Worcester currently on ridership.
Linking New Haven with Providence meeting at Westerly RI will get a lot traffic. Linking Springfield/Worcester will do the same too because Springfield is already connected with New Haven through Hartford Line. Linking Worcester/Providence won't cut it on ridership.
Just looking at real data, ridership is not there even if adding New Bedford/Fall Rider to be mix of Worcester/Providence. New Bedford/Fall Rider are just a nearby towns from providence.
The real problem, for whatever the reason, MBTA commuter line ridership is much poorer than CT equivalent. Just give you a number, providence line is said to be busiest of commuter line in the whole MBTA system, that is only at 25,728 daily boarding on 2018 ridership number according to wikipedia information. That is poor even between Boston/Providence.
As comparison, New Haven MNR line between GCT/Stamford/New Haven line has 125,000 weekday daily ridership before pandemic. Now I figured 2/3 is between Stamford/GCT because they have extra slow trains and more packed on trains, a bit more shorter lines to South Norwalk, New Canaan Danbury etc. 1/3 of that ridership should be between Stamford/New Haven. Whatever the number to look at it, New Haven station is much bigger station than Providence or Worcester currently on ridership.
Linking New Haven with Providence meeting at Westerly RI will get a lot traffic. Linking Springfield/Worcester will do the same too because Springfield is already connected with New Haven through Hartford Line. Linking Worcester/Providence won't cut it on ridership.
I'd love to see a good comparison between MBTA Commuter Rail and its CT equivalents in terms of frequency, travel times, and costs. I wonder if there's some kind of chicken and egg issue with the lower ridership being reflective of lesser service and perhaps there is some kind of indication that increasing ridership would track quite well with various improvements in service.
I do think that were there to be a Worcester/Providence service via Woonsocket and Central Falls/Pawtucket, then it, too, would benefit from meeting some kind of extended SLE service at Westerly. In terms of New England rail priorities, I'd think that aside from what's already under construction, a gradual electrification and improvements of MBTA Commuter Rail service with a North-South Rail Link is probably the first priority, then electric rolling stock and extension of improved SLE service and MBTA Providence Line service both extended to either overlap in at least one station, reconfiguring Springfield station operations for better north-south through-running so Hartford Line / Valley Flyer trains don't need that 15 minute layover operation to go further north, fixing the local/express service bottleneck on the New Haven Line (reconfiguring the Bridgeport station is my favored choice) and expansion of services west of Worcester to at least Springfield. These would probably take some precedence over a Worcester-Providence line though the last proposal was a private venture to which I say--sure, if you can raise the private funds for it and it doesn't goof up any existing train service, give it a go.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-08-2020 at 11:21 PM..
I was going to mention a “chicken/egg” connundrum. In a parallel universe where Worcester, Woonsocket, Providence, Fall River, New Bedford were all thriving then a high-speed train line between them would be pretty cool. Heck, continue it north of Worcester to Fitchburg, Lowell, Lawrence, Haverhill, and Newburyport.
However, the fact of the matter is that these cities are not thriving, and a lack of public transportation between them is not the reason for that.
I was going to mention a “chicken/egg” connundrum. In a parallel universe where Worcester, Woonsocket, Providence, Fall River, New Bedford were all thriving then a high-speed train line between them would be pretty cool. Heck, continue it north of Worcester to Fitchburg, Lowell, Lawrence, Haverhill, and Newburyport.
However, the fact of the matter is that these cities are not thriving, and a lack of public transportation between them is not the reason for that.
Right, though there's a bit of cost-benefit analysis there that might work out in favor for some things. I was pointing out earlier that there is no existing rail and right-of-way to get from Providence to Fall River and New Bedford so the cost of constructing that, let alone operating it, would be pretty extreme.
However, there is an existing track and right-of-way between Worcester and Providence by way of Woonsocket and there is under construction a Central Falls / Pawtucket station that would be on the tracks south of where the Woonsocket/Worcester line would break off from the current Providence/Northeast Corridor tracks. Providence and Worcester haven't been doing too badly in recent years and Woonsocket having finally gotten to population growth after decades of minor decline. In addition to that, going past Providence on the line would mean an interlining of service of Central Falls / Pawtucket, Providence, and any station beyond which makes the line a far more effective local option. I think that calculation, even without the Central Falls / Pawtucket station under construction then, is probably why there was an attempt at resuming private rail operations, and it would seemingly be a more reasonable idea with every passing year as these cities exhibit modest growth (better than decline!) and the Central Falls / Pawtucket station opens.
One city that confuses me is Waterbury. It's called by many "the armpit of Connecticut" and it's crime and blight are terrible...but it's been able to keep its population right around 105,000 in every census since the 50s. How is this? Didnt the vast majority of "rust belt" cities (Waterbury brass industry) *lose a lot of population after 50s/60s?
I have no idea if I'm right about this, but is it's steady population through the decades *because of its poverty rather than in spite of it? Like maybe because it's filled with poor families, they have more babies/larger families?...and if the city became a better place to live, the population would actually decrease??
That's the only explanation for Waterburys stable population that I can come up with.
One city that confuses me is Waterbury. It's called by many "the armpit of Connecticut" and it's crime and blight are terrible...but it's been able to keep its population right around 105,000 in every census since the 50s. How is this? Didnt the vast majority of "rust belt" cities (Waterbury brass industry) *lose a lot of population after 50s/60s?
I have no idea if I'm right about this, but is it's steady population through the decades *because of its poverty rather than in spite of it? Like maybe because it's filled with poor families, they have more babies/larger families?...and if the city became a better place to live, the population would actually decrease??
That's the only explanation for Waterburys stable population that I can come up with.
I can think of a couple possibilities why, but they're just assumptions.
First, the Waterbury area didn't have as many established suburbs compared to other CT cities (that's changed now).
Also, compared to other CT cities, Waterbury actually had a fair amount of open space, so a lot of suburban housing was built up outside the downtown core, such as in the northwest part of town. The downtown area lost a lot of population while the outer ring of the city had as large as a 30% increase between 1990-2000 and other years (see https://waterburyct.org/filestorage/...compressed.pdf and http://www.wdconline.org/filestorage...g_-_DRAFT).pdf)
So Waterbury grew and shrank at dramatic enough levels that they mostly canceled each other out. Cities like Hartford and New Haven already had well established suburbs for people to move. In addition, because of their small area, those cities were already mostly built out, leaving little to no room for new suburban development.
City land area in Square miles:
-Waterbury: 29 (28.5 land)
-Hartford: 18.1 (17.4 land)
-New Haven: 20.1 (18.7 land)
I feel like Waterbury began its decline way way later than the big 3 of Connecticut. Like it may have economically declined but the white flight and social dysfunction was kept mostly in check till the 1990s g I know Waterbury had diversity back in The 60s/70s) but it just seems as though it were a healthier city like a Danbury for a while there. Wasn’t it majority white even in 2000? That right there shows it had a different history than New Haven Hartford and Beidgeport.
Seems to me (from what I can see) that Waterbury was holding in for a long time but the continued economic stagnation of CT over the last 20 years and the generally increasing precariousness of being middle class in New England were the straw that broke the camels back. And with all the non profit and revitalization efforts and capital having been concentrated in the big 3 for so many decades it has been hard for Waterbury to build that sort of social infrastructure and capital to sort of revitalize itself.
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