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I was thinking about Milwaukee's place in all of this, as it has fallen , like Cleveland, St. Louis , Detroit and Baltimore, but perhaps not as much. I'll put it in the 20-30 category...
Larger city(no), metro( separated by only about 100,000)..more historical significance and more urban yes...my wife is from Baltimore...
I think the best way to judge true size is not by city limits or MSA, but urban area. Last census Baltimore's urban area was almost double the size (2.2m vs 1.25m).
While Charlotte is more populous within city limits its city limits are huge -- more than 300 sq miles. Baltimore has 1.3m people in 300 sq miles.
I think the best way to judge true size is not by city limits or MSA, but urban area. Last census Baltimore's urban area was almost double the size (2.2m vs 1.25m).
While Charlotte is more populous within city limits its city limits are huge -- more than 300 sq miles. Baltimore has 1.3m people in 300 sq miles.
A good chunk of the area of the city is especially in the southwest part of Charlotte is highly undeveloped and is mostly forested. This is a very misleading stat where it brings down the ppsm significantly....Also take into account that Charlotte gets robbed in its urban area by the census from having cities that touch its city limits like Gastonia, Concord, Kannapolis,etc....The actual urban area of Charlotte is over 2 million people people
Well my reasoning for starting this series is because the Top 10ish cities get beaten to death on here, and will continue to be spoken of and compared in every single way they've already been talked about hundreds of times...
I just plan on doing this series to the Top 25 (or 30, but probably 25), followed by an upcoming "rising stars" list if the 2020s for those who don't make the cut, get a gauge on what people think of our top cities right now. After the Top 25-30 cities are more regional than national, so there would be no reason to continue a series like this afterwards. But I appreciate talking about other cities a little more than is normally the case here...
I do think there is a pretty clear consensus on the Top 6, with the only debate being that DC and SF seem interchangeable at 4-5; I also think there's a consensus that both have a slight gap/heads up on Boston, but Boston is mostly everyone's #6...
I alluded to this in the other thread, there's a pretty noticeable majority of people that agree Miami isn't a Top 10 city, and I agree with that, and the reasoning has been laid out many times on here. This isn't a recent revelation, this is more noticing the trend on Miami almost a decade on here. That said, people absolutely think Miami is in the same class/tier as the 7-10 cities, it's just at the back of that tier and somebody has to be the odd city out, and more often than not, people feel like that city is Miami...
Seattle is pushing Miami, I think most people would still lean Miami but there is no longer a substantial gap between Miami and Seattle...
For this thread in particular, the real debate comes at #15. The other thread voted Denver in as #15, but there is significant debate, as there should be, as to whether 15 is Denver, SD, or Phoenix. I'm comfortable saying those three comprise the 15-17 cities, but that #15 position is very much in contention...
Like the whole "Miami Top 10" thing, people see those three cities within the same class as MSP and Detroit, but there's very little contention that those two belong in the Top 15, they're both pretty well accepted. So they are interchangeable at 13-14, still the same tier as the next three just slightly more solidified positions; those two have also been left behind by Seattle, who was a peer a decade ago but is firmly approaching another level now...
So my person opinion is Den/SD/Phx in any order make up 15-17, so it's interesting watching the votes for the final three slots. I don't really see Austin as contention this high yet, but apparently a number of people do. And it's become apparent in the recent year or two on here that people mostly feel St Louis is no longer Top 20 stature anymore. Would love to hear more feedback on that...
Interesting. From my (very unscientific) perspective, Denver and MPLS are interchangeable. And so are Phoenix and SD - two large sunbelt cities that dont seem to be particularly impactful, nationally or globally... They don't have a strong corporate presence, cultural influence or historical significance. (Tampa Bay is another one that fits that mold.) So if I were to rank 13-17, it'd be:
Interesting. From my (very unscientific) perspective, Denver and MPLS are interchangeable. And so are Phoenix and SD - two large sunbelt cities that dont seem to be particularly impactful, nationally or globally... They don't have a strong corporate presence, cultural influence or historical significance. (Tampa Bay is another one that fits that mold.) So if I were to rank 13-17, it'd be:
13-15: MPLS, Detroit, Denver
16-17: Phoenix, SD
What makes Mpls and Denver interchangeable? Mpls has a higher population and GDP.
What makes Mpls and Denver interchangeable? Mpls has a higher population and GDP.
It does, but the difference is not huge. If you look at more granular population figures you'll see that Denver is actually more populous up to 20 mile radius around downtown, and after that MPLS starts edging ahead. Going out even to a 40 mile radius, though, the gap is under 10%. I think they are in the same weight class.
Also, population is obviously not the sole metric (particularly when the difference is not very substantial). Both cities can claim bragging rights, depending on where you look. Denver's downtown appears to be slightly bigger (per Demographia's 2020 report -- 132k jobs vs 108k); it's the dominant city across a huge part of the country; it is a bigger air hub; and it seems a little more "on the radar" for most people. GaWC lists both of them as "beta". So all things considered I think they are extremely close peers.
While Charlotte is more populous within city limits its city limits are huge -- more than 300 sq miles. Baltimore has 1.3m people in 300 sq miles.
You really have to look at a map of urbanized areas to get a true sense of size and population because of the criteria which precludes the merger of urbanized areas once they have grown into each other. Baltimore has something of an advantage there, being a big city historically so there weren't opportunities for smaller urbanized areas to become established within close proximity. Charlotte, on the other hand, was pretty small historically and is truly a postwar city, having only made the 100 largest cities list in the 1940 Census at #91 with a bit over 100K people. This allowed for other smaller cities in the region (Gastonia, Concord, Rock Hill, etc) to establish their own urbanized areas that remain separate to this day despite the fact that they have grown into Charlotte's. When you include them, Charlotte's UA is just under 2.1M. But if we're being consistent, DC and Baltimore could be considered to be an arch-urbanized area on that same basis with each city having its own subcluster of sorts.
A good chunk of the area of the city is especially in the southwest part of Charlotte is highly undeveloped and is mostly forested. This is a very misleading stat where it brings down the ppsm significantly....Also take into account that Charlotte gets robbed in its urban area by the census from having cities that touch its city limits like Gastonia, Concord, Kannapolis,etc....The actual urban area of Charlotte is over 2 million people people
I take your points but I am pretty sure Baltimore is substantially more populous within any two equivalent areas. It's a much more urban city, and is far denser particularly in the urban core.
Also if you start grabbing adjacent areas outside of the designated UA, you can do the same for Baltimore and get somewhere between 6 and 8 million. Of course that would be nonsense because most of that population is not really within the Baltimore sphere of influence -- but that's the whole point of the UA designation. UA is supposed to be cut off once you leave the MSA. Otherwise you'd have one UA stretching from Delaware to Massachusetts.
Interesting. From my (very unscientific) perspective, Denver and MPLS are interchangeable. And so are Phoenix and SD - two large sunbelt cities that dont seem to be particularly impactful, nationally or globally... They don't have a strong corporate presence, cultural influence or historical significance. (Tampa Bay is another one that fits that mold.) So if I were to rank 13-17, it'd be:
13-15: MPLS, Detroit, Denver
16-17: Phoenix, SD
Detroit stands apart from these other cities in that it has an established legacy as a major city and national player. The way I view these things, the burden of proof is never on the incumbent city, I give it benefit of doubt until slippage becomes unquestionable across several planes...
So rising cities have the burden of proving they have supplanted an incumbent from position. Minneapolis hasn't done that with Detroit and has been knocking on the door for years...its still on Detroit's heels but has yet to show it can or has leapt over Detroit...
(To be clear I view all of these cities in the same "weight class" or bracket, but listing them in order, I can't justify any over Detroit at this point)...
I can see Minneapolis and Denver as interchangeable, though. I lean Minny, slightly larger corporate base and market, but I have no issues with someone calling them interchangeable. Phoenix and San Diego are also interchangeable and clearly bring up the rear in this group of five, in my opinion!
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