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Yeah I didn't take it that way. That said, I still disagree. Tampa is known for all the things I listed. Economically, finance and healthcare is broad, so it's hard to "claim" that. Charlotte can only claim banking because it's a banking HQ mecca. San Jose can claim tech because it's a tech mecca, even though tech is growing all over the country.
Well....yeah. You're stating the obvious as if it detracts from my point in some way. I'm not even stressing precisely WHY they came to be recognizable leaders in these sectors, just that they are.
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Tampa has cigars and pirates as "landmarks" the same way St Louis has breweries as you say. If someone in Oregon doesn't know that, eh it's whatever.
Well St. Louis has (present tense) breweries whereas Tampa had (past tense) cigars and pirates, and of course Ybor City is a great historic asset that testifies to Tampa's past status as the cigar capital of the world, but what about since then?
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Yeah, not really. Tampa has always been #1 in the region and Hillsborough has grown faster than Pinellas for the most part. Pinellas declined 0.5% in 2010, Hillsborough grew 23.1%, with Pasco taking some thunder. Hillsborough by far has the largest employment base in the region. Pinellas is back growing again, but Hillsborough was still the only county in Florida to grow at least 20k in 2019, even though it's 4th in population.
Like every other big city, Tampa only grew because it grew in economics. Like every other sunbelt city, jobs expanded wild. Not sure how you can say Tampa has grown without effort. All those jobs that ended up in Tampa could have easily went elsewhere in Florida, especially 90 minutes northeast. All cities have to "try." I've never heard of one that hasnt. Amazon didn't pick NY just because it's sitting there. NYC "tried" to lure them, with incentives, like the other hundred cities that applied.
I'm not talking about the basic run-of-the-mill stuff that every city has to do for local economic development purposes; that much should be obvious. I mean I don't really see any evidence of extra efforts being made that would make it an industry or regional leader in some sense beyond tourism/retirees. As I stated above, a big part of the advantage of Florida is that the place sells itself. How could a state in the South that was largely undeveloped into the 20th century have otherwise grown so exponentially within the past 100 years? Lots of military personnel were stationed in Tampa Bay during WWII when the place wasn't nearly as known as it is now and after the war, many returned because of the climate, geography, pace of life, etc. Then you had the tourists of course and many of them eventually came to live in Tampa. Basically the story of growth there in that region was different than the way it typically happened in the 20th century when the jobs would head to a place first and then the people would follow. But many of the folks moving to Tampa did so because of the lifestyle it offered, not because of work and then jobs to support a burgeoning population followed.
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Tampa has a good brand, that's strong especially locally and regionally, and it can and does operate independent of St Pete. Again, as an example, Tom Brady. It was "he's headed to Tampa!", "will he succeed in Tampa?" Only time people would say "Tampa Bay" was if they were saying "Buccaneers" since "Tampa Bucs" rightfully sounds weird.
Actually media outlets also reported that "Tom Brady is going to Tampa Bay." Whether they said Tampa or Tampa Bay, it's clear that the NFL team was in view which itself is based in the city of Tampa. But even so, it sounds like you're talking about simple identity here and not branding.
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Tampa is known for pirates/Gasparilla festival, cuisine, cigars, museums, Cuban influence, Busch Gardens, death metal, and if you're Florida local: the state fair, USF, manatees, the AFB, and Ybor.
St Pete is known for it's hip downtown, liberal atmosphere (pride, etc), breweries, sandy beaches, art districts, Dali Museum, and the Grand Prix, and if you're Florida local: Tropicana Field, Fort Desoto, and Sunshine Skyway. Both cities have their own brand. You've told me a lot of things I already know.
There's a difference between having a particular brand and simply being known for having certain things. An effective city brand typically focuses on at most a handful of things which a place is very well-known for and collectively they form a cohesive image that identifies the place and distinguishes it from others . Think Austin, whose brand is based on is popular motto "Keep Austin Weird" which stresses its countercultural roots as well as the nickname "Live Music Capital of the World." Or consider Charleston's brand which is based on its history/architecture (partially reflected in the "The Holy City" nickname), cuisine, and the Lowcountry aesthetic and culture.
In Florida, obviously Miami and Orlando have the strongest individual brands. Tampa Bay's, even though there are a couple of things more known about the region and its cities, still doesn't really have a cohesive local brand and even a lot of things you name that it has aren't all that known beyond Florida, and St. Petersburg's downtown renaissance only began in the previous decade and it always takes perception longer to catch up to reality. Jacksonville fares even worse when it comes to local branding. But the point that I was making with my statement about local/individual branding is the Tampa area (as well as Jacksonville) didn't necessarily need to have a particularly strong local brand since it benefited from Florida's brand and this makes perfect sense if you think about it. You mentioned a poll on the Florida forum that asked which city is the most quintessentially Floridian and Tampa won and I'd agree because it really has that "jack of all trades, master of none" thing going on when it comes to the elements that make up the idea of Florida where it has enough of all of them to make for a well-rounded place to live but not really enough of any of them to truly be all that well-known for any specifically: warm and sunny weather, great beaches, large bodies of water, theme parks, centralized convention facilities, retirees, tourists, snowbirds, Southern culture, Cuban culture/history, Black history, Cracker history, etc. Come to think of it, perhaps the region ought to think about branding itself as a microcosm of Florida itself if that hasn't already been considered.
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I really don't know where you've gotten this from. No city can grow that big without trying. There's a reason Ocala is not Orlando and Lakeland is not Tampa.
It didn't have to try hard at all though, that's my point. Even you yourself said (and I agree) that Orlando wasn't responsible for Disney, but rather Disney happened to Orlando. Tampa is located on a large natural harbor and had railroad connections to the rest of the state due to infrastructure investment by a Northern philanthropist who also lobbied for extensive engineering of the harbor for defense and commercial purposes. Those events practically guaranteed the region's future status as a very populous area in a state that didn't have nearly as much baggage as other Southern states which, along with climate and geography, make Florida's cities (below north Florida at least) more appealing to Northern transplants compared to most other places in the South. I mean think about it: Tampa didn't have a similar history as other peer cities who were forced to economically reinvent themselves. There was no slavery, so new "New South" revolution, then followed by offshoring and the loss of legacy industries, then the luring of foreign automakers, etc. Almost from the very beginning it was all about tourists, other seasonal visitors, retirees, military personnel-turned-residents, etc. so there was no need for Atlanta Forward campaigns or lobbying for changes to laws governing interstate banking or intentionally establishing a tech economy or coming up with the idea of RTP or luring foreign manufacturers who could benefit from the skillset of displaced textile workers, etc. So yes, early infrastructure investments plus geographic/weather advantages made Tampa a natural growth engine.
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Again....Tampa's main specialty is healthcare. Along with it, you have finance, insurance, tourism, shipping, business, and information technology. I dont know what it is now, but from 2009 to 2016, Tampa was 4th in the US in job growth, and is still #1 in Florida in overall job growth and #1 in STEM growth. So the city is doing what it's supposed to. Microsoft is in Tampa. Most people dont know that.
There is no way Tampa would have been able to get to it's size just off tourism. Even Orlando has a more diverse economy than people think. Aerospace is just one area.
You are confusing the industries which employ the most people in the region with the region specializing in those industries and they are absolutely not the same thing. If that were the case, then just about every city would specialize in healthcare. I'd be curious to see where Tampa ranks in the Southeast in these sectors; I don't think it leads in any of them in Florida itself, but I could be mistaken about that.
No not just tourism, but also retirees, seasonal residents, military personnel who returned after being stationed there, and of course some workers in the companies based there. But consider how both of these things can be true for the same region:
We were tops in net migration. In other words, our population grew at a faster rate than any of the other 19 cities. The fact that people want to come to Tampa Bay continues to be an asset, as it indicates they have a generally positive outlook on the area. That said, we need to grow smart or we’ll lose that advantage...
Tampa Bay ranked dead last in the economic output of advanced industries, including technology companies. We have a ways to go just to catch St. Louis, which ranked 19th. Austin ranked No. 1 followed closely by Orlando.
It's not a very economically competitive place, but it doesn't have to be to sustain or even accelerate population growth because of infrastructure and natural built-in advantages.
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Austin gets a lot of CD hype because it's building a million skyscrapers and is high on the growth charts. It's def polarizing - I still remember some Austin vs KC thread that went crazy - but it's liked. But that's exactly my point. No reason to get worked up on CD comparisons because most times people don't do the research. They just give whatever they like more the benefit. You see it all the time.
So Austin only gets hype because of a ton of skyscrapers going up, but Tampa doesn't because people don't "do the research"? Never mind that last paragraph in the excerpt I quoted above. When a young city has managed to foster and sustain a culture of high economic dynamism and competitiveness over several years, that will result in very fast and highly visible changes in the physical landscape of the region. Places that lack that culture will be much less likely to witness those types of changes over the same period of time. And the places that are changing the most will get more regional and national coverage whereas the places that aren't won't. Sorry but this isn't simply a matter of personal preference here as you as casting it.
The few downsides of Tampa and the reason it can be viewed as underachieving have nothing to do with the skyline. Sunny Isles Beach and Bellevue have amazing skylines and no one is confusing them with major cities. Tampa does seem to underwhelm when compared to San Diego, Minneapolis, San Jose, Denver, and Charlotte, its direct peers. All of those metros offer a much higher GDP, GDP per capita, and strong diversified economy. Tampa’s economy definitely doesn’t get enough credit but these other cities are typically among the top 30 for lists of strongest or growing economies. Even Orlando is usually among the top 15 or so. Tampa is not mentioned and appears to be just outside the top 30.
As far as GDP, these other cities easily outshine Tampa. Tampa should be in the conversation with those cities but it’s not, especially considering its huge population. In GDP, San Jose is 13th, Minneapolis 15th, San Diego 17th, Denver 18th, Charlotte 21st, and then Tampa 24th. GDP per capita is even worse. Forget these cities, Tampa Bay is 4th ... in the state, after Miami, Orlando, and Jacksonville.
It’s a great city and I enjoyed living there but I think it’s properly rated. It should be on par with San Diego and St. Louis and Baltimore in addition to the cities already mentioned but it just isn’t.
I mention the skyline because that's what CD has focused on the most. And it's a big reason why cities like Austin and Nashville have gotten high merits. Tampa is currently building a ton of skyscrapers too, theyre just not in the flashy 600-800 range like Austin. But that's another conversation.
Tampa could punch a little harder economically yes, but the economy IS diversified. It really can't get more diversified. Healthcare, finance, insurance, construction, shipping (largest port in FL, 7th in US), tourism and service/retail, military, real estate, business, and information technology. If that is not "diversified" then what is?
Thing is, Tampa Bay is a big retirement metro, ranking as one of the best, and retirees water down GDP numbers. Not as much Hillsborough County, but Pinellas and Pasco moreso. Retirees don't contribute to the labor force and they spend less money. You can see it with Phoenix as well, and many other of the Florida metros. Tampa also doesn't get Lakeland/Polk County added to the numbers when they should be, nor Sarasota/Bradenton. Similar to Detroit with Ann Arbor. Even though the companies in those metros are considered "Tampa companies." Publix is not in Tampa's MSA GDP numbers, but it's still considered one of the biggest employers "in Tampa."
Austin has tech and Charlotte has banking, which are good at inflating GDP because they're so strongly valued. Tampa is healthcare and finance. There's a lot of Fortune 500 and 1000 presence in Tampa Bay, a few HQ's, and there's dozens of regional offices, but it's not a big banking HQ or tech HQ city, and other than maybe healthcare, I wouldn't call Tampa a "hub" for anything like Austin, Charlotte, LA, NY, Miami, ATL, Seattle, etc clearly are.
And in terms of Florida, even though Tampa Bay is apparently the top major metro for retirees, it's still #1 in job growth, #1 in STEM growth, #2 in GDP, and Hillsborough is #1 in numerical growth. Tampa is #2 in per capita income. Tampa is 4th in the southeast for GDP. And again, Tampa was 4th in job growth in the country post recession. Tampa's also ranked 5th best in the US for startups, 5th in the southeast for venture capital, 4th in the southeast for corporate relocations, the best small tech market, and so on. Tampa is in the top 20-30 in growth on multiple lists, not 30+. The city website has a comprehensive list.
It's more than numbers. Sorry, imo Tampa easily stacks up with Charlotte, Denver, Baltimore, etc. That's its tier. Lower the retiree base and the GDP numbers would go up. Cities and metros are more than GDP. LA has the 2nd highest GDP but also has a high income disparity. Seattle too, and New York. Tampa is ranked 10th in fiscal health, while NYC is dead last. SF's GDP and per capita is ultra high because of all the tech, yet people still have to commute from Stockton and people making $100K a year still need roommates. There's multiple variables. I don't like ranking these cities, but I will group, and imo Tampa is in the Charlotte, Denver, Baltimore group. It's more than GDP numbers. But you're free to feel different. It is what it is.
Well....yeah. You're stating the obvious as if it detracts from my point in some way........
Mutiny, I'm not doing this all day and I'm not dissecting all those blocks of text, sorry. It's a dead horse convo. I've said what I said and I've already answered your points. I already told you what Tampa has done beyond retirees and tourism. Retirees is not Tampa's largest growth demo, and tourism is not Tampa's biggest industry, it's not even top 2, so not sure why you keep asking "what have they done?"
I really don't care who ranks what where, especially on CD, which is big on bias and personal feelings. How people feel about Tampa, Austin, Denver, etc is how they feel. When people say Nashville is a safer city than Tampa, it's clear that A. they just have an allegiance to Nashville, and/or B. they have no allegiance to Nashville, but are too lazy to do research and post something factual. I didn't grow up in Tampa, I'm not "813 till I die", but the city and metro definitely has more going for it than this thread gives credit. Tampa 2019 is a worlds different than Tampa 2010. But if everyone here but me thinks it belongs at the bottom of the barrel, it is what it is.
I like Tampa's numbers, rankings, current and future development projects, and how it fares as a place to work and live. If Austin has a higher GDP, I could really care less. That doesn't affect anything going on in FL. It's a subjective and as I've already said, I just wanted to give it a defense, since many people probably aren't aware of the dynamics or what's currently going on in the city in 2020. I'm sure most people aren't aware Tampa has a female, republican turned democrat, lesbian, former police chief mayor. It's interesting, she's covering quite a few demos, you don't see that everyday. I'm done getting roped into the versus though. Sorry sir.
I don't have an opinion on the Tampa debate, but one thing I will say is that "if you take out the retirees, the GDP would look a lot better" is a questionable argument. If you take out the retirees, the population would also be a lot smaller. The 3 million+ metro population is probably Tampa's biggest strength when going head to head against Austin, Pittsburgh, etc.
I mention the skyline because that's what CD has focused on the most. And it's a big reason why cities like Austin and Nashville have gotten high merits. Tampa is currently building a ton of skyscrapers too, theyre just not in the flashy 600-800 range like Austin. But that's another conversation.
I think you're being pretty disingenuous with this whole skyscraper argument, at least if you're talking about the General U.S. and City vs. City subforums. Cities are discussed and compared in all kinds of ways here, and skyscrapers would be the category that's talked about the least. Granted you'll probably hear more talk about those cities' skylines because they are growing and developing so dramatically, but way more discussion is devoted to the factors that are driving their development booms.
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Tampa could punch a little harder economically yes, but the economy IS diversified. It really can't get more diversified. Healthcare, finance, insurance, construction, shipping (largest port in FL, 7th in US), tourism and service/retail, military, real estate, business, and information technology. If that is not "diversified" then what is?...
Austin has tech and Charlotte has banking, which are good at inflating GDP because they're so strongly valued. Tampa is healthcare and finance. There's a lot of Fortune 500 and 1000 presence in Tampa Bay, a few HQ's, and there's dozens of regional offices, but it's not a big banking HQ or tech HQ city, and other than maybe healthcare, I wouldn't call Tampa a "hub" for anything like Austin, Charlotte, LA, NY, Miami, ATL, Seattle, etc clearly are.
This is precisely the point that's being made: Tampa doesn't specialize in a particular industry (nor does it act as a traditional regional anchor that would give it a wider sphere of influence) or in any other significant way (culturally, educationally, etc.) that would actually give it a greater level of importance. Austin and Charlotte DO have specializations that make them more important (which results in actual solid GDP and wage gains, not "inflation" which suggests there is something artificial about the sectors that act as major drivers of their local economies). We need to dispense with much of the prevailing wisdom about economic diversification vs specialization on the city/metropolitan level which causes many of us to regard such diversification as a the highest regional economic ideal.
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Originally Posted by Jandrew5
Mutiny, I'm not doing this all day and I'm not dissecting all those blocks of text, sorry. It's a dead horse convo. I've said what I said and I've already answered your points. I already told you what Tampa has done beyond retirees and tourism. Retirees is not Tampa's largest growth demo, and tourism is not Tampa's biggest industry, it's not even top 2, so not sure why you keep asking "what have they done?"
I really don't care who ranks what where, especially on CD, which is big on bias and personal feelings. How people feel about Tampa, Austin, Denver, etc is how they feel. When people say Nashville is a safer city than Tampa, it's clear that A. they just have an allegiance to Nashville, and/or B. they have no allegiance to Nashville, but are too lazy to do research and post something factual. I didn't grow up in Tampa, I'm not "813 till I die", but the city and metro definitely has more going for it than this thread gives credit. Tampa 2019 is a worlds different than Tampa 2010. But if everyone here but me thinks it belongs at the bottom of the barrel, it is what it is.
I like Tampa's numbers, rankings, current and future development projects, and how it fares as a place to work and live. If Austin has a higher GDP, I could really care less. That doesn't affect anything going on in FL. It's a subjective and as I've already said, I just wanted to give it a defense, since many people probably aren't aware of the dynamics or what's currently going on in the city in 2020. I'm sure most people aren't aware Tampa has a female, republican turned democrat, lesbian, former police chief mayor. It's interesting, she's covering quite a few demos, you don't see that everyday. I'm done getting roped into the versus though. Sorry sir.
I know good and well that when I said you were "stating the obvious" about Charlotte's and San Jose's signature industries in a way that minimized the key roles of those industries in the greater importance of those two places did NOT trigger you like this. You've resorted to completely mischaracterizing and distorting my arguments, declaring that you don't care about rankings and what goes into them (which is literally what this thread is about), and that the only thing that matters is that you like Tampa. This has all the makings of a temper tantrum. I mean you were the one that started these long ass Tampa posts (p. 7, #66) but that's what this subforum is for so I engaged you. And I don't know if it's because you perceived you might have misunderstood the point about Tampa that had initially come up, that you'd been losing the argument in general, or because I specifically highlighted that particular fallacy (circular reasoning) in the only part of my post you quoted, but if you can't engage in these discussions without lashing out at people when they successfully counter your points and point out any fallacies in your own argument, then you may want to consider whether other forums might work better for you for these types of discussions. That's not something to be taken personally whatsoever so I don't know why you're getting all huffy with me when, again, you started this tangent. Nobody is right 100% of the time.
Last edited by CaseyB; 05-21-2020 at 02:18 PM..
Reason: Rude
San Antonio has a land area of 461 square miles and Austin is 297. Tampa is 113 square miles. That's what I meant. Much of "Tampa" is not in Tampa city limits (same deal with Miami and Orlando). Tampa's true size is more in line with Seattle than it is Tulsa. If Tampa was in Texas, all those people would probably be in the city. Annexation is just different.
And San Antonio at least, has swallowed land:
Since the late twentieth century, San Antonio has had steady population growth. The city's population has nearly doubled in 35 years, through both population growth and land annexation (the latter has considerably enlarged the physical area of the city).[29]
Unlike most large cities in the U.S., San Antonio is not completely surrounded by independent suburban cities, and under Texas state law[93] it exercises extraterritorial jurisdiction (ETJ) over much of the surrounding unincorporated land,[94] including planning major thoroughfares and enforcing rules for platting and subdivision. It pursues an aggressive annexation policy and opposes the creation of other municipalities within its ETJ.[95] Nearly three-fourths of its land area has been annexed since 1960.[96]
In the 2000s the city annexed several long narrow corridors along major thoroughfares in outlying areas to facilitate eventual annexation of growth developing along the routes. The city planned to annex nearly 40 additional square miles by 2009.[97] In May 2010, the City of San Antonio agreed to release thousands of acres of land in its extraterritorial jurisdiction along Interstate 10 to Schertz.
Since the city has annexed a large amount of land over time, San Antonio surrounds several independent enclave cities, including Alamo Heights, Terrell Hills, Olmos Park, Hollywood Park, Hill Country Village, Castle Hills, Windcrest, Kirby, Balcones Heights, and Shavano Park.
Looking at MSA total square miles, Tampa/St. Pete is 2.516 square miles while San Antonio's MSA is 466 square miles.
so you only have accounts to go on, which means you have the least to talk
Maybe you should learn proper English before attempting to say anything at all.
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