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Status:
"See My Blog Entries for my Top 500 Most Important USA Cities"
(set 8 days ago)
Location: Harrisburg, PA
1,051 posts, read 977,648 times
Reputation: 1406
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Uncommon_
I’m confused as to why you have Cleveland so high. It’s 30th in GDP, 34th in population, and has been declining in population. One can make the argument that’s it’s been surpassed by Columbus and Cincinnati in the past decade, both having higher and faster-growing populations and very similar GDP outputs.
I feel strongly about it. First of all, most measures exclude Akron metro (703k) which adds substantially to Cleveland. With Akron added, CLE metro is 2.75 million (21st largest MSA not including Riverside as a separate MSA). With Akron added It would have $181 billion GDP (ranking 20th, again not including Riverside as a separate MSA). The recent 2020 Demographia world urban areas report includes Akron as part of Cleveland's urban area. It has all 4 major sports teams (Browns, Cavs, Indians, Lake Erie Monsters). It was one of the most important and populated cities in the USA for much of the 19th and 20th centuries. Very likely in the top 10 for decades. It has the bones of a major city.
I've never visited CLE and have no connection whatsoever to it. But I really feel it is a lot higher up than people give it credit for. Much the same way Pittsburgh is. I pair Pittsburgh and Cleveland with the newer/rising cities of Portland and Charlotte. Just food for thought.
I believe 2 very strong indicators of a city’s status and importance are the money it makes and the amount of people living there:
Portland is 20th in GDP, 25th in population
St. Louis is 21st in GDP, 20th in population
Austin is 22nd in GDP, 29th in population
Tampa is 23rd in GDP, 18th in population
Pittsburgh is 24th in GDP, 27th in population
Orlando is 26th in GDP, 23rd in population
Nashville is 28th in GDP, 36th in population
San Antonio is 33rd in GDP, 24th in population
Las Vegas is 34th in GDP, 28th in population
For me, it’s CLEAR that Vegas doesn’t belong. San Antonio and maybe Nashville either. The rest are debatable.
Well I definitely think not only does data support Sacramento as potentially a Top 25 city, I think feet on the ground within the city support Sac as well, compared to the peer cities commonly thought of in this weight class. Sac's problem is I don't believe public perception has caught up yet, and many people still seem to consider other cities that aren't greater outside of many, if any, things besides perception; people still tend to regard those cities higher...
But as I've mentioned in other threads about San Jose, I do feel like within the last decade, there's been a stronger recognizance of Sacramento, I think its value has risen. Its every bit in the same boat with all of its similarly sized cities, outperforming several in a variety of categories, and I've been to many in that weight class. Only people unfamiliar with Sac seem to have this lasting impression that it doesn't measure up and resort to flimsy arguments like "sports teams" (a CD go-to)...
As it is, I do think that I personally feel it's just outside of the Top 25 at this time, but it's close. For sure its within the next group of cities, there's literally no rational argument against Sac being a 26-30 city that would be supported by anything, and Sac for sure has an argument as Top 25...
I feel strongly about it. First of all, most measures exclude Akron metro (703k) which adds substantially to Cleveland. With Akron added, CLE metro is 2.75 million (21st largest MSA not including Riverside as a separate MSA). With Akron added It would have $181 billion GDP (ranking 20th, again not including Riverside as a separate MSA). The recent 2020 Demographia world urban areas report includes Akron as part of Cleveland's urban area. It has all 4 major sports teams (Browns, Cavs, Indians, Lake Erie Monsters). It was one of the most important and populated cities in the USA for much of the 19th and 20th centuries. Very likely in the top 10 for decades. It has the bones of a major city.
I've never visited CLE and have no connection whatsoever to it. But I really feel it is a lot higher up than people give it credit for. Much the same way Pittsburgh is. I pair Pittsburgh and Cleveland with the newer/rising cities of Portland and Charlotte. Just food for thought.
I appreciate the fact that you are making this argument without any ties to Cleveland. But the exclusion of Akron could be said about any city. San Jose should be included with San Francisco. Raleigh should be included with Durham. And there are literally dozens more examples. But the fact is, the OMB separates them, so I’m not sure if arbitrarily combining metros together to make a point is credible.
Also, Cleveland has been losing population since 1950. It has the bones of a major city because it used to be one, back when it had nearly 1 million people. It’s nowhere near there anymore. It’s very clearly in a steady decline. Portland and Charlotte are newer/rising cities; Cleveland is definitely not.
Status:
"See My Blog Entries for my Top 500 Most Important USA Cities"
(set 8 days ago)
Location: Harrisburg, PA
1,051 posts, read 977,648 times
Reputation: 1406
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Uncommon_
I appreciate the fact that you are making this argument without any ties to Cleveland. But the exclusion of Akron could be said about any city. San Jose should be included with San Francisco. Raleigh should be included with Durham. And there are literally dozens more examples. But the fact is, the OMB separates them, so I’m not sure if arbitrarily combining metros together to make a point is credible.
Also, Cleveland has been losing population since 1950. It has the bones of a major city because it used to be one, back when it had nearly 1 million people. It’s nowhere near there anymore. It’s very clearly in a steady decline. Portland and Charlotte are newer/rising cities; Cleveland is definitely not.
I have already mentally included San Jose with San Francisco for #5. Idk about Raleigh, I probably would combine Durham with Raleigh to arrive at Raleigh in the high 30s maybe 37 or 38. My opinion is probably unique but it is what it is. I tend to weigh history as a component in these rankings.
So yeah, that's my list. In my lifetime of almost 27 years I think Austin, Seattle, Portland, Atlanta, San Francisco, Phoenix, and Nashville have gained the most momentum/ground. Lot of Sunbelt and PNW.
Baltimore, St. Louis, and Detroit have lost the most ground but are STILL in the fight. Other Rust belt cities too. Make no mistake things can always change. There could be a future 30 years from now where Detroit cracks the top 10 again, who knows. Maybe it will barely be in the top 20 by then or be out of the top 20 entirely.
As far as Cleveland, it just has a lot of history, value, and hidden prestige. DT Cleveland and DT Akron are only 40 minutes apart. CLE is often overlooked or thrown in the dust bin for not being a fast growing, up and coming darling. My opinion is certainly not the only one that matters here. There is significant subjectivity here. Again I have no interest in seeing Cleveland or Pittsburgh or anyone given preferential treatment. I just enjoy these rankings for some odd reason.
Edit: spelling
Thanks for doing these murksiderock. Interesting to debate these middle-weight cities.
I think St. Louis is #20 (I also voted for it on the 15-20 poll).
After that I've got Tampa, Portland, Pittsburgh, and Austin. I also voted "Other" for Sacramento, which i think should have been a choice. I've got Orlando just missing the cut. I could see arguments for san Antonio.
Personally I don't think Vegas should be a choice. I think it is about 35 for me, but obviously some disagree since it is getting votes.
As much as I like Sacramento, it's not in the top 25 for me, and you could make an argument it's not even top 30. I have it somewhere between 27-30.
Sac has ZERO Fortune 500 companies and only ONE pro sports team. That is a major blow in my eyes.
Cleveland , Pittsburgh and New Orleans are all well known cities. In the national media world, California still gets attached when mentioning Sacramento. "In Sacramento, California, reporters name, NBC News". ..In those other cities their states's name doesn't get mentioned. It's "In Cleveland, or in Nashville". But when it comes to Sacramento, it's always "Sacramento, California.."
Last edited by pistola916; 05-08-2020 at 12:06 PM..
I’m confused as to why you have Cleveland so high. It’s 30th in GDP, 34th in population, and has been declining in population. One can make the argument that’s it’s been surpassed by Columbus and Cincinnati in the past decade, both having higher and faster-growing populations and very similar GDP outputs.
As much as I like Sacramento, it's not in the top 25 for me, and you could make an argument it's not even top 30. I have it somewhere between 27-30.
Sac has ZERO Fortune 500 companies and only ONE pro sports team. That is a major blow in my eyes.
While I agree that it isn't quite Top 25, there is no credible argument for it not being Top 30, though I'd assume the "court of public opinion" would use these same talking points...
Somehow with no F500 companies, Sacramento has the 27th-largest economy in the country; of the 27 largest economies, Sacramento has the 12th-highest growth rate, far outpacing rates of growth in some of its peripheral cities in the standings...
You gotta be from Folsom or something lol. Sac has a reliable and stable economy, sure the big time corporate base isn't there, because of proximity more than anything. Our economy is healthier than many of the cities with multiple F500s...
And I wish you guys would retire the sports team argument. Sac now has two major leagues by the way, MLS is the highest level of professional soccer in the nation and if other cities get to claim theirs, so can Sac. Furthermore, the only reason there isn't more in Sac is once again because of proximity to The Bay...
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