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I never inferred that Milwaukee's lakefront was a massive as Chicago's lakefront. It's the next best, though, in the Midwest.
I don't disagree with that. Nor do I ignore that Cleveland, for well over a century (nearly a century and a half), has given over much of its lake shore, notably downtown and to the east of downtown, over to industrial uses. But my assertions are these:
1. Cleveland's lakefront (and waterfront, in general) are changing for the better -- and are radically better than even 20 years ago... This is true esp downtown around the 9th Street pier, the Rock Hall and the Great Lakes Science Center (collectively known today as North Coast Harbor), including a brand new marina, a new apt building, restaurant building (Nuevo), and lots of recreational boating and jet ski/paddle boat rentals.
2. Since the time when the Lake and River were horribly industrially fouled by industry through the 1960s (yes leading to the last of several Cuyahoga river fires, most infamously in 1969, due to oil slicks), both the River and the Lake have experienced a massive cleanup over time and have recently received EPA awards for so doing (now college (shell) rowers are HQ'd along the River).
3. The Flats have been revived and rival Milwaukee's River Walk in terms of robust and lively entertainment, and boardwalk/riverside dining and private boat access, esp on warm weekends. And proposals have been funded and are awaiting City Planning Commission approval to massively increase the number
4. Because of the above and because of the always-existing, outstanding improved Edgewater Park, Lakewood Gold Coast, Whiskey Island, Gordon Park, Lakewood Park, etc, the gap between Cleveland and Milwaukee, in terms of lakefront quality for living and recreation is not as nearly as wide as you assert.
I don't disagree with that. Nor do I ignore that Cleveland, for well over a century (nearly a century and a half), has given over much of its lake shore, notably downtown and to the east of downtown, over to industrial uses. But my assertions are these:
1. Cleveland's lakefront (and waterfront, in general) are changing for the better -- and are radically better than even 20 years ago... This is true esp downtown around the 9th Street pier, the Rock Hall and the Great Lakes Science Center (collectively known today as North Coast Harbor), including a brand new marina, a new apt building, restaurant building (Nuevo), and lots of recreational boating and jet ski/paddle boat rentals.
2. Since the time when the Lake and River were horribly industrially fouled by industry through the 1960s (yes leading to the last of several Cuyahoga river fires, most infamously in 1969, due to oil slicks), both the River and the Lake have experienced a massive cleanup over time and have recently received EPA awards for so doing (now college (shell) rowers are HQ'd along the River).
3. The Flats have been revived and rival Milwaukee's River Walk in terms of robust and lively entertainment, and boardwalk/riverside dining and private boat access, esp on warm weekends. And proposals have been funded and are awaiting City Planning Commission approval to massively increase the number
4. Because of the above and because of the always-existing, outstanding improved Edgewater Park, Lakewood Gold Coast, Whiskey Island, Gordon Park, Lakewood Park, etc, the gap between Cleveland and Milwaukee, in terms of lakefront quality for living and recreation is not as nearly as wide as you assert.
Milwaukee's riverfront encompasses so much more than just the Riverwalk. I'll attach a couple links.
Just a very small sampling of Milwaukee's river through downtown, the Third Ward, etc. There are a ton of condos with boat slips , businesses, restaurants, etc. The river in Milwaukee is much more than the Riverwalk. Tour boats, too. It's pretty amazing.
Just a very small sampling of Milwaukee's river through downtown, the Third Ward, etc. There are a ton of condos with boat slips , businesses, restaurants, etc. The river in Milwaukee is much more than the Riverwalk. Tour boats, too. It's pretty amazing.
Look, I'm in no way here to knock Riverwalk. It's awesome; something to which any city should aspire; Cleveland included. In a way I misspoke, because Riverwalk and Cleveland's Flats are inherently different: Riverwalk is part and parcel of a level downtown area and partially its warehouse District, whereas Cleveland's Flats is a remake of an entirely industrial valley separated from the City fabric that evolved from a few longshoreman's bars and a hard restaurant or 2 into a hot, and growing, residential and entertainment district.
Look, I'm in no way here to knock Riverwalk. It's awesome; something to which any city should aspire; Cleveland included. In a way I misspoke, because Riverwalk and Cleveland's Flats are inherently different: Riverwalk is part and parcel of a level downtown area and partially its warehouse District, whereas Cleveland's Flats is a remake of an entirely industrial valley separated from the City fabric that evolved from a few longshoreman's bars and a hard restaurant or 2 into a hot, and growing, residential and entertainment district.
Milwaukee already has that (residential and entertainment) and it's expanding. I'm glad Cleveland has some positive growth in these areas, though. Milwaukee has had it for quite a while, and it's only getting better.
This number is misleading. Kansas City annexed 250 sq mi of suburbia in the 1960s, to bring it to 314sq mi by the 1970 census. It was about 60 sq mi in 1950. The fact that it quintupled in size and is STILL below its peak population is quite telling for how much population it's core actually lost. It's likely more urban than simply using population loss as a metric would suggest.
If Detroit, St. Louis, Chicago, Cleveland, and Cincinatti had ever been able to annex their inner rings, their population losses would also seem far less.
Kansas City's older core actually hollowed out substantially, much like St. Louis' north side, after 1968. It's worth noting here that its population in 1980 was below what it was in 1950, when the city had made only one annexation of any note: that of the city of Marlborough (pop. about 4,000) at its southern edge, in 1944.
I suspect that if we were to take only the population within the 1944 city limits, we'd find a city of about 225,000 now. And given that just over 450,000 people lived in this territory in 1950, that would have made the city a lot more urban in character than people think it is.
But its famous lack of serious traffic congestion and its drive-everywhere character work against it. Most Kansas Citians, I suspect, consider both of these pluses.
Moving across the state: I also voted St. Louis, but given Detroit and Cleveland's standing as industrial behemoths, I'm surprised to find myself in the majority. Moving back: Again, KC's image belies its heritage. Yes, it was a major meatpacking and processing center, with a stockyards second in size only to Chicago's, but it was also a major industrial center, ranking only behind Detroit in car and truck production.
Kansas City's older core actually hollowed out substantially, much like St. Louis' north side, after 1968. It's worth noting here that its population in 1980 was below what it was in 1950, when the city had made only one annexation of any note: that of the city of Marlborough (pop. about 4,000) at its southern edge, in 1944.
I suspect that if we were to take only the population within the 1944 city limits, we'd find a city of about 225,000 now. And given that just over 450,000 people lived in this territory in 1950, that would have made the city a lot more urban in character than people think it is.
But its famous lack of serious traffic congestion and its drive-everywhere character work against it. Most Kansas Citians, I suspect, consider both of these pluses.
Moving across the state: I also voted St. Louis, but given Detroit and Cleveland's standing as industrial behemoths, I'm surprised to find myself in the majority. Moving back: Again, KC's image belies its heritage. Yes, it was a major meatpacking and processing center, with a stockyards second in size only to Chicago's, but it was also a major industrial center, ranking only behind Detroit in car and truck production.
Just one correction here..Omaha had the largest stockyards from 1955-1971....Chicago was second. Maybe KC was third?
Just one correction here..Omaha had the largest stockyards from 1955-1971....Chicago was second. Maybe KC was third?
I would say so based on that. I'm guessing the aftermath of the 1951 flood in Kansas City probably affected those standings, though, given the year Omaha took the No. 2 spot.
Doesn't come close to comparing. Milwaukee has made the most of its waterfront....you need to go see it in person, and you will see what I mean. Milwaukee and Chicago have maximized their waterfronts, and Cleveland's waterfront can't compare. It's too bad Cleveland didn't have the foresight to turn theirs into what it could have been.
I'll add this link...it shows how the lakefront is usable (beaches, yacht club, etc. all along the lake to downtown...where there is a park and you can walk to downtown. Unless you're there, I guess, one can't imagine it. The link is showing the view from the lake, which isn't the best view, but it illustrates how it's all usable up to the lake, and that downtown goes up to the lake.
I think we may have miscommunicated-because I really was agreeing with what you mentioned.. that Cleveland should've, and hopefully still can make better use of a majority of it's lakefront, especially surrounding Downtown and heading east-I have no qualms with what you mention with Milwaukee having more activities, residential, etc. happening along it's waterfront-though, with exception, the city of Cleveland and Metroparks system has done a fantastic job of activating Edgewater Park, at least during the summer-I'd like to see Cleveland do things like that.. but along a much larger stretch of it's lakefront. I was more commenting that Cleveland's lakefront was every bit as aesthetically beautiful-and a space like the Gold Coast of Cleveland with Pier W and those apartment towers is highly unique. Perhaps it also adds as a benefit, but Milwaukee's immediate lakefront appears flatter overall, not giving this overview type vistas-Atwater Park, though not quite as wide a beach or viewline, is perhaps the closest instance near Milwaukee to an Edgewater like beach.
I agree that closer in, Milwaukee has made more use of places like Bradford Beach, Henry Maier Park, etc... I just think that the reason for Milwaukee's success has less to do with visual/natural aesthetics (which I think Cleveland has every bit as much, in spades), and more to do with decisions made about how to use the lakefront spaces. I definitely think Cleveland is getting better at using the closer to downtown lakefront though.. and I think it will get much better at doing so in time.
MJLO-appreciate getting that contextual background on KC-it does show that it was much more urban at it's peak given the land surrounding it-KC definitely has a fair number of legacy city characteristics as well.
I don't disagree with that. Nor do I ignore that Cleveland, for well over a century (nearly a century and a half), has given over much of its lake shore, notably downtown and to the east of downtown, over to industrial uses. But my assertions are these:
1. Cleveland's lakefront (and waterfront, in general) are changing for the better -- and are radically better than even 20 years ago... This is true esp downtown around the 9th Street pier, the Rock Hall and the Great Lakes Science Center (collectively known today as North Coast Harbor), including a brand new marina, a new apt building, restaurant building (Nuevo), and lots of recreational boating and jet ski/paddle boat rentals.
2. Since the time when the Lake and River were horribly industrially fouled by industry through the 1960s (yes leading to the last of several Cuyahoga river fires, most infamously in 1969, due to oil slicks), both the River and the Lake have experienced a massive cleanup over time and have recently received EPA awards for so doing (now college (shell) rowers are HQ'd along the River).
3. The Flats have been revived and rival Milwaukee's River Walk in terms of robust and lively entertainment, and boardwalk/riverside dining and private boat access, esp on warm weekends. And proposals have been funded and are awaiting City Planning Commission approval to massively increase the number
4. Because of the above and because of the always-existing, outstanding improved Edgewater Park, Lakewood Gold Coast, Whiskey Island, Gordon Park, Lakewood Park, etc, the gap between Cleveland and Milwaukee, in terms of lakefront quality for living and recreation is not as nearly as wide as you assert.
I would agree with this also-the places you mention on the westside really are impressive and Lakewood IMO is one of the more impressive surrounding suburbs in the country, esp. considering it's not in like a Top 10 or Top 5 city. As for living, the gold coast apartments are impressive, and there is plenty of recreation offered along the lake especially to the west-I think Milwaukee's primary edge here lies with downtown core which had really been what I was mainly focused upon.
Just a very small sampling of Milwaukee's river through downtown, the Third Ward, etc. There are a ton of condos with boat slips , businesses, restaurants, etc. The river in Milwaukee is much more than the Riverwalk. Tour boats, too. It's pretty amazing.
Nice shots of the Milwaukee Riverwalk-it really is impressive. I think Milwaukee had 2 edges here on this- a head start in developing all of this, and the fact that as TheProf mentions, due to Cleveland's significant topography, The Flats is much more separate/siphoned off from downtown and almost forming on some level as a separate neighborhood-That said, considering The Flats was really not all that much of anything a decade ago-remarkable progress.. I think it will be exciting to see how that area continues to grow and develop with time.
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