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I feel like these pictures still prove my point. Richmond's urban area still looks similar to Baltimore's urban area. Baltimore's urban are is just more densely populated. Having been to both cities numerous times I know Baltimore is busier than Richmond, but I honestly still feel like I am in a similar sized urban area. I know that Richmond is overall a smaller city than Baltimore, but I feel that the difference in urban area is not that significant. If you like urban areas with less traffic and a bit more green space than you may prefer Richmond or Norfolk. However if you prefer busier urban areas than Baltimore definitely would be the better choice for you.
Richmond is pretty urban, I will admit, but they don't feel like similar sized cities or metros. Without looking at population numbers, Richmond feels like a metro the size of Raleigh; Maybe New Orleans.
I'm not too sure about that between HR & Richmond MSA is almost pushing 3 million Richmond is 1.2 HR is 1.7 that's 2.9, Baltimore isn't even 2.5 million. While yes Baltimore is more urban than both cities, once combined outside of professional sports Baltimore MSA doesn't offer more than both Norfolk & Richmond combined MSA.
In what world? Baltimore MSA as of '23 is ~2.84 million without factoring PA exurbs or population nuances with DC. Baltimore's metro for all intents and purposes has the same population as both Virginia Beach-Norfolk's and Richmond's in an area smaller then either individually.
Same applies to Urban Area.
Baltimore's UA is 2.21 million in 654 sq/mi (Bel Air gets separated on a geographic technically due Gun Powder Falls which robs Baltimore of 214k people and 107 sq.mi of area)
Richmond UA (1.06 million - 512 sq/mi)
Virginia Beach-Norfolk UA (1.45 million - 486 sq/mi)
Baltimore has 2.45 million people in 761 sq/mi vs. Richmond + Virginia Beach-Norfolk combined 2.51 million people in 998 sq/mi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin_R
You're reaching for Baltimore especially when the city has lost so much population.
No one is reaching for Baltimore. You just don't realize how big the gap still actually is.
I'm not too sure about that between HR & Richmond MSA is almost pushing 3 million Richmond is 1.2 HR is 1.7 that's 2.9, Baltimore isn't even 2.5 million. While yes Baltimore is more urban than both cities, once combined outside of professional sports Baltimore MSA doesn't offer more than both Norfolk & Richmond combined MSA. Your reaching for Baltimore especially when the city has lost so much population.
In what world? Baltimore MSA as of '23 is ~2.84 million without factoring PA exurbs or population nuances with DC. Baltimore's metro for all intents and purposes has the same population as both Virginia Beach-Norfolk's and Richmond's in an area smaller then either individually.
Same applies to Urban Area.
Baltimore's UA is 2.21 million in 654 sq/mi (Bel Air gets separated on a geographic technically due Gun Powder Falls which robs Baltimore of 214k people and 107 sq.mi of area)
Richmond UA (1.06 million - 512 sq/mi)
Virginia Beach-Norfolk UA (1.45 million - 486 sq/mi)
Baltimore has 2.45 million people in 761 sq/mi vs. Richmond + Virginia Beach-Norfolk combined 2.51 million people in 998 sq/mi.
No one is reaching for Baltimore. You just don't realize how big the gap still actually is.
HR& Richmond together is still larger, it still was a reach. Yeah you are reaching you pretty much proving why VA has Maryland beat handily. Your argument is pretty much Baltimore, all things considered Virginia's #2 and #3 metros in the state arguably hold weight with Maryland number 1. I'll make a reach myself, Richmond and HR combined gives Maryland a run for it's money all ready. Outside of mountains HR& Richmond offers everything Maryland does state wide except professional sports and maybe a subway ride in Baltimore. I'm not even taking NOVA or Western VA into account.
Also I think we all take Baltimore urbanism into account it's a huge city, you just gloss over the fact that Baltimore isn't the city it was, and that your knowledge of Va's metros is skewed to believe Baltimore gives it an edge over VA, no way.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,560,868 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by canalcity63
Although I agree that Baltimore is more urban than either Richmond or Norfolk alone I believe that the actually urban experience is not too different. Richmond urban built environment is honestly as large as Baltimore. The difference is Baltimore is busier and more densely populated. However the number of buildings downtown and row house neighborhoods is similar. Obviously Baltimore is busier than Norfolk and offers a larger urban area but sometimes quantity is not better than quality. Norfolk is generally a cleaner city with with a more expansive downtown harbor, a good mix of restaurants, shops, and museums. Other than major league sports it really offers a similar experience to Baltimore. Granted Baltimore offers more of these things, but if you combined the amenities of Norfolk and Richmond it really becomes pretty even.
It's not at all though. Honestly Baltimore is closer to Philly's urban scale than Richmond is to Baltimore's, and I really don't even think that is an opinion it's more a matter of fact. Baltimore has just seen more urban blight/decay and population loss to bring it back down to earth, but understand that the city housed almost 1 million people in 80 square miles in its history. That scale is nothing close to anything Richmond (proper) would ever equate to.
The city of Richmond is urban, and it even gives urban comparisons to parts of Baltimore, and actually Pittsburgh IMO in some ways also, but the scale is truly not that grand to me. Throw in the fact that Baltimore has subway tunnels, a port with mega ships docking, along with cruise ships, a large harbor with multiple multiple large underwater tunnels, a long Amtrak tunnel that on both sides is surrounded by dense big city rowhome development on either side of those tunnels entering or exiting that continues on for miles, it's scale is felt much stronger than that of a Richmond.
It's not at all though. Honestly Baltimore is closer to Philly's urban scale than Richmond is to Baltimore's, and I really don't even think that is an opinion it's more a matter of fact. Baltimore has just seen more urban blight/decay and population loss to bring it back down to earth, but understand that the city housed almost 1 million people in 80 square miles in its history. That scale is nothing close to anything Richmond (proper) would ever equate to.
The city of Richmond is urban, and it even gives urban comparisons to parts of Baltimore, and actually Pittsburgh IMO in some ways also, but the scale is truly not that grand to me. Throw in the fact that Baltimore has subway tunnels, a port with mega ships docking, along with cruise ships, a large harbor with multiple multiple large underwater tunnels, a long Amtrak tunnel that on both sides is surrounded by dense big city rowhome development on either side of those tunnels entering or exiting that continues on for miles, it's scale is felt much stronger than that of a Richmond.
Agree with this. I'm big fans of Baltimore and Richmond, but Baltimore definitely packs more of a punch in terms of scale.
Richmond feels larger than one may expect, mostly due to its state government presence. But unlike Richmond, Baltimore developed much more industrially and gained much more urban stature in the early part of the 20th Century.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,560,868 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin_R
HR& Richmond together is still larger, it still was a reach. Yeah you are reaching you pretty much proving why VA has Maryland beat handily. Your argument is pretty much Baltimore, all things considered Virginia's #2 and #3 metros in the state arguably hold weight with Maryland number 1. I'll make a reach myself, Richmond and HR combined gives Maryland a run for it's money all ready. Outside of mountains HR& Richmond offers everything Maryland does state wide except professional sports and maybe a subway ride in Baltimore. I'm not even taking NOVA or Western VA into account.
Also I think we all take Baltimore urbanism into account it's a huge city, you just gloss over the fact that Baltimore isn't the city it was, and that your knowledge of Va's metros is skewed to believe Baltimore gives it an edge over VA, no way.
I'm not sure what this is all supposed to prove when it's state vs state. Baltimore by itself is at LEAST twice as large scale as Richmond, and overall combined you can take Norfolk's population and combine it with Richmond and still be smaller than Baltimore. And that's with heavy population losses in Baltimore the last couple decades. I chuckle at how people take MSA numbers and try to equate them to raw population in an actual land area. That's not how it works:
These are each cities population radius from downtown:
Baltimore, MD at 6.2mi 774,431
Richmond, VA at 6.2 mi 351,692
Norfolk, VA at 6.2 mi 400,447
Combined Rich+ Norfolk at 6.2 mi 752,139
Baltimore at 25mi- 2,816,302
Richmond at 25mi 1,253,756
Norfolk at 25 mi 1,503,104
Combined Richmond + Norfolk at 25mi- 2,756,860
That radius population for Norfolk includes practically all of the 7 cities and even expands across the border to North Carolina. They are not in the same league honestly.
HR& Richmond together is still larger, it still was a reach. Yeah you are reaching you pretty much proving why VA has Maryland beat handily. Your argument is pretty much Baltimore, all things considered Virginia's #2 and #3 metros in the state arguably hold weight with Maryland number 1. I'll make a reach myself, Richmond and HR combined gives Maryland a run for it's money all ready. Outside of mountains HR& Richmond offers everything Maryland does state wide except professional sports and maybe a subway ride in Baltimore. I'm not even taking NOVA or Western VA into account.
It's a reach because HR + Richmond manage to eke out an extra ~100k more people in an area 2-3x the geographic area? Once again... Baltimore has over 1 million people inside the 695 beltway.
You act like Bethesda, Rockville, Silver Spring, Annapolis, etc.. don't exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin_R
Also I think we all take Baltimore urbanism into account it's a huge city, you just gloss over the fact that Baltimore isn't the city it was, and that your knowledge of Va's metros is skewed to believe Baltimore gives it an edge over VA, no way.
Just because Baltimore isn't the same city it was 70 years ago does not mean Richmond & HR have collectively "caught up" to it.
Last time I checked theres not a Ritz Carlton's & Four Seasons across from each other in Richmond or HR. Why? Because neither of them are major cities and don’t have the raw population or economic stature to support niches industries like that.
I say this as a person that's frequents all 3 of them.
I'm not sure what this is all supposed to prove when it's state vs state. Baltimore by itself is at LEAST twice as large scale as Richmond, and overall combined you can take Norfolk's population and combine it with Richmond and still be smaller than Baltimore. And that's with heavy population losses in Baltimore the last couple decades. I chuckle at how people take MSA numbers and try to equate them to raw population in an actual land area. That's not how it works:
These are each cities population radius from downtown:
Baltimore, MD at 6.2mi 774,431
Richmond, VA at 6.2 mi 351,692
Norfolk, VA at 6.2 mi 400,447
Combined Rich+ Norfolk at 6.2 mi 752,139
Baltimore at 25mi- 2,816,302
Richmond at 25mi 1,253,756
Norfolk at 25 mi 1,503,104
Combined Richmond + Norfolk at 25mi- 2,756,860
That radius population for Norfolk includes practically all of the 7 cities and even expands across the border to North Carolina. They are not in the same league honestly.
And.... I'm not arguing Baltimore density,hell I've said it's a large city. But so what Baltimore is by far the best thing Maryland has to offer, and it still barely beats out Richmond and Hampton Roads. Outside of professional sports I'm still finding it hard to see where Baltimore MSA is better than HR & Richmond combined. You keep putting up population figures, so what??? Who cares, Baltimore is big for nothing in this argument. HR & Richmond both offer things that Baltimore doesn't as well. You're continually failing to realize this while spewing population figures.
This is also still the #2 and #3 metros in the state, vs your #1 and it's still comparable. VA offer way more as a state than Maryland, and Baltimore doesn't make Maryland better than VA that's the reach.
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