Best urban bang for your buck: Philly, Chicago, B'more, Pittsburgh? (crime, places)

[kimumingyu]

Originally Posted by cpomp

Not to open a can of worms, but how do these numbers adjust when expanding to the metros?
I would imagine Chicago, Philadelphia and Baltimore would be close and Pittsburgh significantly more affordable.

And I wonder how these numbers (or the order) will change over the next 5-10 years.

I thought about that too, but decided to only look at city-wide data, since the question at hand is "urban bang for your buck" and opening it to the metro would include areas that would defeat the purpose of the discussion.

Regarding change in affordability, I agree it will be interesting to see. I've checked the median sales price from Sept 2017 compared to Sept 2020, and here's the increase (can't find Pittsburgh data for some reason):

Chicago +19.8%
Philadelphia: +31.3%
Baltimore: +39.3%

Looks like Philly's low COL may be a thing of the past if price increases continue.

And some other cities just for fun:

Cleveland: +56.7%
Detroit: +52.7%
Minneapolis: +25.0%
Portland: +15.8%
Denver: +23.9%
Atlanta: +35.8%

[Justabystander]

Originally Posted by kimumingyu

I thought about that too, but decided to only look at city-wide data, since the question at hand is "urban bang for your buck" and opening it to the metro would include areas that would defeat the purpose of the discussion.

Regarding change in affordability, I agree it will be interesting to see. I've checked the median sales price from Sept 2017 compared to Sept 2020, and here's the increase (can't find Pittsburgh data for some reason):

Chicago +19.8%
Philadelphia: +31.3%
Baltimore: +39.3%

Looks like Philly's low COL may be a thing of the past if price increases continue.

And some other cities just for fun:

Cleveland: +56.7%
Detroit: +52.7%
Minneapolis: +25.0%
Portland: +15.8%
Denver: +23.9%
Atlanta: +35.8%

56% and 52% of what? These are percentages, not sales numbers in dollars. Portland and Denver were high to begin with, the increase in $$ might be much higher than Detroit. Same with all these figures.

[mwj119]

Originally Posted by rowhomecity

Philadelphia is 75 minuets to the Atlantic Ocean. 75 minutes to NYC and about 1hr and 45 minutes to DC. And less than two to the mountains. And this is why the Philadelphia Real estate market right now is hotter than hot. Even in COVID.

Philadelphia's location hasn't changed. Yes, Philadelphia may be the recipient of NYC expats, but real estate data shows that it's not hotter than many other major metros, including Baltimore and Chicago. I think you are underestimating just how hot real estate is everywhere right now.

Of the top 25 major metros, here is the current snapshot of real estate data that should be of particular interest: Median Days on Market and Median List Price.

Median Days On Market, by Metro:
washington-arlington-alexandria, dc-va-md-wv: 28 Days
boston-cambridge-newton, ma-nh: 33.5 Days
san francisco-oakland-hayward, ca: 35 Days
seattle-tacoma-bellevue, wa: 35 Days
san diego-carlsbad, ca: 35 Days
baltimore-columbia-towson, md: 35 Days
minneapolis-st. paul-bloomington, mn-wi: 35.5 Days
denver-aurora-lakewood, co: 36 Days
phoenix-mesa-scottsdale, az: 37 Days
detroit-warren-dearborn, mi: 37.5 Days
riverside-san bernardino-ontario, ca: 41 Days
chicago-naperville-elgin, il-in-wi: 42 Days
charlotte-concord-gastonia, nc-sc: 42 Days
philadelphia-camden-wilmington, pa-nj-de-md: 43 Days
portland-vancouver-hillsboro, or-wa: 43.5 Days
atlanta-sandy springs-roswell, ga: 44.5 Days
dallas-fort worth-arlington, tx: 46 Days
los angeles-long beach-anaheim, ca: 49 Days
tampa-st. petersburg-clearwater, fl: 50 Days
houston-the woodlands-sugar land, tx: 52 Days
pittsburgh, pa: 54 Days
st. louis, mo-il: 57.5 Days
orlando-kissimmee-sanford, fl: 57.5 Days
new york-newark-jersey city, ny-nj-pa: 58 Days
miami-fort lauderdale-west palm beach, fl: 93 Days


Median List Price, by Metro:
los angeles-long beach-anaheim, ca: $2,246,615
san francisco-oakland-hayward, ca: $1,642,508
san diego-carlsbad, ca: $1,430,229
new york-newark-jersey city, ny-nj-pa: $1,186,191
boston-cambridge-newton, ma-nh: $1,034,098
miami-fort lauderdale-west palm beach, fl: $915,095
seattle-tacoma-bellevue, wa: $893,605
washington-arlington-alexandria, dc-va-md-wv: $794,398
denver-aurora-lakewood, co: $756,533
phoenix-mesa-scottsdale, az: $713,518
riverside-san bernardino-ontario, ca: $680,145
portland-vancouver-hillsboro, or-wa: $658,104
dallas-fort worth-arlington, tx: $539,992
charlotte-concord-gastonia, nc-sc: $509,144
philadelphia-camden-wilmington, pa-nj-de-md: $507,086
chicago-naperville-elgin, il-in-wi: $504,252
houston-the woodlands-sugar land, tx: $494,208
atlanta-sandy springs-roswell, ga: $489,190
minneapolis-st. paul-bloomington, mn-wi: $478,465
tampa-st. petersburg-clearwater, fl: $477,092
baltimore-columbia-towson, md: $462,700
orlando-kissimmee-sanford, fl: $456,541
detroit-warren-dearborn, mi: $379,567
pittsburgh, pa: $361,094
st. louis, mo-il: $341,901

Inventory - Monthly - All Residential - View Metro Data: https://www.realtor.com/research/data/

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by DamenVChicago

Pittsburgh simply can't compete with Chicago on nearly every factor. Maybe sports teams fandom. Chicago is a world class city. Pittsburgh just isn't. As much as Pittsburgh is nice and all, there's a lot of cheap, urban rust belt cities in America (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, etc..). Chicago is very unique in its level of offerings and price point, pretty much unmatched by any city in the country, possibly the continent, or even the western world on the whole.

All that said, I will agree with you that Pitt is better for working class individuals compared to Chicago. But it's not alone in affordability + urban department, as I listed a few similar cities above.

Right, but Pittsburgh is substantially cheaper and has some pretty interesting topography and has rowhomes with narrow street neighborhoods for those who are into that. In a bang for the buck kind of comparison, that buck can go further in Pittsburgh than Chicago. Pittsburgh also has quite a bit of large intact urban neighborhoods, more so than Cleveland and Cincinnati with the Hill District neighborhoods really being the only really rough neighborhoods. Milwaukee is also like Pittsburgh in that respect with a very intact urban core and fewer freeway demolitions and general demolition having happened. Of the cheap, urban rust belt cities, Pittsburgh and Milwaukee didn't necessarily get as wrecked with surface parking lots and brownfield sites versus Cleveland, St. Louis, and Detroit. Cincinnati seems to be sort of halfway between these and Pittsburgh and Milwaukee in terms of "wrecked-ness."

[thedirtypirate]

The Wissahickon valley park is an absolute gem right in the middle of Philadelphia.



It really is beautiful this time of year: https://i.redd.it/siv6uzc7uiv51.jpg

[Duderino]

Originally Posted by mwj119

Philadelphia's location hasn't changed. Yes, Philadelphia may be the recipient of NYC expats, but real estate data shows that it's not hotter than many other major metros, including Baltimore and Chicago. I think you are underestimating just how hot real estate is everywhere right now.

Yes, extremely low inventory is driving price gains and declines in days on market everywhere, that's true. But it is also true that the trend is particularly pronounced in the Philly area.

As of September 2020, when you look at metrics like year-over-year price and days on market, Philly was third among the Top 50 metro areas by median price growth (following only Boston and Cincinnati) and a decline in the median days on market (following Hartford and VA Beach).

Comparing September 2020 numbers, Philly's annual price growth (15.6%), far outpaced Chicago's (8.3%) and especially Baltimore's (3.2%): https://www.realtor.com/research/september-2020-data/, so I'm not sure how you're evaluating the trends here.

[mwj119]

Originally Posted by Duderino

Yes, extremely low inventory is driving price gains and declines in days on market everywhere, that's true. But it is also true that the trend is particularly pronounced in the Philly area.

As of September 2020, when you look at metrics like year-over-year price and days on market, Philly was third among the Top 50 metro areas by median price growth (following only Boston and Cincinnati) and a decline in the median days on market (following Hartford and VA Beach).

Comparing September 2020 numbers, Philly's annual price growth (15.6%), far outpaced Chicago's (8.3%) and especially Baltimore's (3.2%): https://www.realtor.com/research/september-2020-data/, so I'm not sure how you're evaluating the trends here.

I was less focused on YoY trends to be fair, and more focused on current numbers.

What your data tells me is that Chicagoland's demand, then, was (significantly) higher in September of 2019 than Greater Philadelphia's. Chicagoland's real estate is selling faster in September 2020 based on the numbers I showed, yet Philadelphia has seen substantial YoY demand and reduction in time on market based on what you showed. So, that tells me Philadelphia's time on market must have been very high in September of 2019 as compared to other major metros.

That is surprising if not almost impossible to believe. Chicagoland demand has been a significant issue post recession, and I would have bet my mortgage that demand was higher in Philly than Chicago in 2019.

As it relates to the thread, though- It looks like, as far as median home list price, Chicago and Philadelphia are near identical. Of course, Illinois property taxes will make Chicago a bit more expensive, but it's not as big of a delta as some other posters are leading us to believe.

[cpomp]

Originally Posted by Justabystander

It is the price relative to the urban amenities and niceness of the place that is the issue here. Come on, its like shopping a Walmart for a coat when a much nicer coat can by bought at Macy's on sale for a little bit more money.

There is really no comparison between Chicago and the other three. Chicago is nicer, cleaner, more vibrant, larger and has more amenities. Chicago is great in that it is geared for any budget; an $18 million condo in Vista Tower or a $225,000 in Uptown. Same with the suburbs; a $7M house in Winnetka or Hinsdale or a $275,000 house in nice well kept Orland Park . No way I would even consider Pittsburgh on any level, even though it has some positive attributes.

The same can be said for Philadelphia though, just to a slightly lesser extent. Chicago and Philadelphia are the most comparable and closest in terms of amenities, vibrancy, budget spectrums, etc. (Chicago is not that far ahead, so yes its still a comparison).

And if you factor in the suburbs/metro area, Philadelphia closes the gap significantly. There is really nothing the Chicago metro offers that you cannot find in equal or greater amounts in the Philadelphia metro. And price points are similar with wide spectrums.

Pittsburgh is great, but its not on the same level (city or metro).

Baltimore city falls well short of Philadelphia and definitely Chicago, but its metro props it up a bit (not including DC overlap).

[mwj119]

Originally Posted by cpomp

There is really nothing the Chicago metro offers that you cannot find in equal or greater amounts in the Philadelphia metro.

What can you find in NYC MSA that you can't find in the Philadelphia MSA?

What can you find in the Philadelphia MSA, that you can't find in the Boston MSA?

These are all Northern MSAs, that offer a lot of similarities on paper. It's not like we're comparing Philadelphia or Chicago to LA or San Francisco.

The differences in aesthetic, location, built environment and age.. Those are the differences that mean everything. So when you say you can find the same in both, fine. It's what is under the hood that makes a material difference between the two, regardless of which you prefer.

[rowhomecity]

I voted Chicago because I truly do believe it offers the largest scale city at the lowest cost.

BUT my questions are. What is going on there?? Asking legitimate. I know Illinois is loosing population, because Pennsylvania overtook it in 2018 and Pennsylvania is now the 5th largest state.

There are two sides to every story and I keep hearing parts of Chicago are in great distress.