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If you could limit Atlanta to their central 79 square miles and remove some of the far western OTP parts of the city or the furthest southeastern corner, it would be be denser on a comparable footprint.
I think that would be relevant, but is also relevant to point out how much Atlanta's density drops off going outward when it is a region of nearly 6 million.
Downtown and Midtown Atlanta feels much more like a Northern metro than it does anything else, once inside. Obviously, once you venture out, things change. But within the core, it's closer to a Pittsburgh mixed with White Plains atmosphere than anything else.
I would say it’s core definitely compares and surpasses Baltimore’s, and it has for a long time. Have you all been to Baltimore? Beyond the area right next to the harbor (Harbor East, Fells Point, Canton), downtown Baltimore is dead. On the other side of Pratt Street there is hardly anything going on, and beyond that, there are areas you don’t want to go (like around Lexington Market). Atlanta has a much larger vibrant core and it has for a couple of decades.
Now as for Pittsburgh, I’m not sure. It’s downtown has continued to get more grand over the years.
Atlanta’s core is “larger” if skyscrapers and cooperate sq. footage are your thing, apart from that it’s never been larger than Baltimore. Baltimore’s central most 23 sq. mi has never had less than ~300k living with in it.. (that’s the entire population of Pittsburgh for context). Canton is well over 2 miles east of downtown and is a tourist trap. UMD & JH medical campus and schools, Locust Point, Station North, Mt. Vernon, Pigtown, Fed Hill, Hampden all have more foot traffic than the places you’ve named outside of weekends.
I’d also go as far as to wager downtown Pittsburgh is the most active downtown of the three outside of morning/evening rush hour as it has the highest percentage of residential units and geographic constraints force transit through, in and around it..
Regarding Lexington market, idk the last time you’ve been to Baltimore but the entire complex is being literally rebuilt from the ground up as we speak. Hell the entire west side of downtown is having $$$ dumped into with a new project being announced every other week.
Pittsburgh’s has only built 2 buildings over +100m in the last two decade so the whole it getting more grand confuses me. Atlanta & Baltimore blow Pittsburgh out the water in terms of new urban construction.
Atlanta is urban for what it is, but let’s not get too crazy
As much as I love Atlanta and how its core has developed over many other southern cities, it still doesn't compare to NEern cities. There are still gaps in urban development even in Midtown and the infrastructure for bike and pedestrian safety still isn't up to par with the NE. When Downtown is finally revived and SONO (terrible neighborhood name but what else do we call it) are developed we can start comparing core Atlanta with Northeastern cities. I will say that areas outside of Downtown/Midtown have come a significantly long way to the point where entire urban districts are popping up out of nowhere (Memorial Drive, for example, will soon be a major urban residential district. https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7466...7i16384!8i8192)
As much as I love Atlanta and how its core has developed over many other southern cities, it still doesn't compare to NEern cities. There are still gaps in urban development even in Midtown and the infrastructure for bike and pedestrian safety still isn't up to par with the NE. When Downtown is finally revived and SONO (terrible neighborhood name but what else do we call it) are developed we can start comparing core Atlanta with Northeastern cities. I will say that areas outside of Downtown/Midtown have come a significantly long way to the point where entire urban districts are popping up out of nowhere (Memorial Drive, for example, will soon be a major urban residential district. https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7466...7i16384!8i8192)
The Glenwood Park/Cabbagetown corridor looks promising. The only glaring problem is that it won’t be anchored by a Marta station. That will impact foot traffic because most people will drive there. The biggest difference from NE developments and the new infill developments in the south is foot traffic. I’m not saying cities like Baltimore or Pittsburg have great foot traffic and vibrancy, but they’re traditional urban built environment will create foot traffic naturally after redevelopment.
Atlanta isn’t really a vibrant pedestrian city so that’s a perplexing problem to overcome and I don’t know how to correct it. It’s the same issue suburban TOD projects suffer from. They are built urban, but they’re dead from a pedestrian experience. The surrounding neighborhood density is too low and the mode share has very low pedestrian and transit counts by household.
The Glenwood Park/Cabbagetown corridor looks promising. The only glaring problem is that it won’t be anchored by a Marta station. That will impact foot traffic because most people will drive there. The biggest difference from NE developments and the new infill developments in the south is foot traffic. I’m not saying cities like Baltimore or Pittsburg have great foot traffic and vibrancy, but they’re traditional urban built environment will create foot traffic naturally after redevelopment.
Atlanta isn’t really a vibrant pedestrian city so that’s a perplexing problem to overcome and I don’t know how to correct it. It’s the same issue suburban TOD projects suffer from. They are built urban, but they’re dead from a pedestrian experience. The surrounding neighborhood density is too low and the mode share has very low pedestrian and transit counts by household.
It’s mode share is not significantly different than midwestern cities not names Pittsburgh.
So for “smaller northern metros” I’d say yes. For Pittsburgh in particular? No
Cincinnati and St Louis do not have better Transit systems or usage than Atlanta.
It’s mode share is not significantly different than midwestern cities not names Pittsburgh.
So for “smaller northern metros” I’d say yes. For Pittsburgh in particular? No
Cincinnati and St Louis do not have better Transit systems or usage than Atlanta.
Agreed on the transit system for Atlanta compared to many smaller cities. That’s why I said not having MARTA to anchor that development is a missed opportunity. It will be interesting to study the pedestrian traffic of the development at full buildout compared to other MARTA anchored developments around Atlanta.
On a side note, I wonder why Pittsburg was brought up for the NE? It’s more midwestern like Cincinnati and St. Louis.
The Glenwood Park/Cabbagetown corridor looks promising. The only glaring problem is that it won’t be anchored by a Marta station. That will impact foot traffic because most people will drive there. The biggest difference from NE developments and the new infill developments in the south is foot traffic. I’m not saying cities like Baltimore or Pittsburg have great foot traffic and vibrancy, but they’re traditional urban built environment will create foot traffic naturally after redevelopment.
Atlanta isn’t really a vibrant pedestrian city so that’s a perplexing problem to overcome and I don’t know how to correct it. It’s the same issue suburban TOD projects suffer from. They are built urban, but they’re dead from a pedestrian experience. The surrounding neighborhood density is too low and the mode share has very low pedestrian and transit counts by household.
I generally dislike your characterizations of Atlanta, but this seems right. Good point.
I’d also go as far as to wager downtown Pittsburgh is the most active downtown of the three outside of morning/evening rush hour as it has the highest percentage of residential units and geographic constraints force transit through, in and around it..
I wouldn't wager that. I think the residential units were pushed out better financed commercial interests from the limited land.
The lack of space wedged between the two rivers and the Hill have led to fewer residential units and there are also fewer adjacent residential neighborhoods in walking distance. It is very small and land-locked, but I would still say residential units are pushed out, while adjacent neighborhoods have barriers.
This is why I separated Pittsburgh and Baltimore from my original post in this thread.
That downtown wedge of Pittsburgh only has a population of 3,600 people. Now that is over just 0.64 sq miles and does not include land lost to the rivers and the hill.
Downtown Atlanta has 26,800 people and that is with 4 sq mi as there are no rivers or hill barriers. Glancing at Census block group data, the density of the core of the center of this core is very comparable to that of Pittsburgh and there are better connections to residential neighborhoods around the central core.
The core of Midtown Atlanta is an even different beast. Much of it is modern condo tower living, but there are many residential units there. There are 41,600 people over 3.8 sq mi and there are no natural barriers to consume build-able land making it possible for people to walk throughout.
Baltimore would be the stand out winner here. They have 37,000 residents on a small downtown footprint than Atlanta, Downtown or Midtown, but the key is its the immediate adjacent neighborhoods in a 1/2 mile walking distance that really helps Baltimore.
Now Atlanta does have multiple cores, but its a far larger region.
Maybe not Pittsburgh and Baltimore, but definitely some of the harder hit Midwestern Rust Belt cities. Baltimore might have a pretty weak downtown, but it still has some pretty bustling inner core neighborhoods while Pittsburgh's downtown's in many ways has gotten more bustling as is somewhat expanding out along the Strip District and Uptown to connect with the large Oakland secondary business district and the overall level of development means that while both Pittsburgh and Baltimore are smaller metropolitan areas, a good deal of the densest and most urban parts of their cores seem to be a bit more urban than that of Atlanta to me. However, a lot of the really hard hit Midwestern Rust Belt cities started out with wider streets and being slightly more spread out than their Northeast counterparts in the first place and were also severely hit with demolitions for parking lots and with brownfield sites so they strike me as having become substantially less urban than before though the previous several years have seen some promising investments.
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