Which city will recover from from decline first: New York, Los Angeles, Chicago (population, Atlanta)
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I am not denying it for New York, but I see it a lot, Atlanta and DC posters in particular... At least New York has the goods to "win" almost any thread, even though it has its weaknesses.
I will say though, Chicago is the only other American city (IMO) that comes close to New York and actually is more attractive in many aspects, but it gets ripped apart on here, no idea why...Philadelphia get its fair share of nastiness too, but Chicago seems to get more.
Totally disagree with you. Chicago is pretty well received and liked on this site. The only time it gets hit on is when it is compared to the top tier cities. Philly on the other hand gets ripped to shreds for some odd reason. The inaccuracies in perception about Philly are just hard to swallow. I lived in Philly and I often wonder if posters have it confused with another city lol. You would think that North Philly represents the entire city the way posters talk about it. I digress, I love Chicago and Philly
But the question being asked is, post-COVID, which city between the 2 (and Chicago) will bounce back first. The high COL isn't going to be (and never was) a deal breaker for folks who are legitimately attracted to these cities and will contribute to their recovery.
There was a thread recently in the Massachusetts forum that diverged into a discussion about NYC housing costs. You can buy a 1 br condo walkable to the PATH with the World Trade Center 20 minutes door to door for $350k. With today’s cost of money, that’s affordable on service sector income in Manhattan. You can buy a deluxe 2 br on the Hudson with the killer city view and a garage parking spot walkable to the PATH and ferries for $750k. The condo fee and property taxes aren’t crazed, either. Yeah, it’s New Jersey and the schools won’t be very good but you’re right in the center of things and that part of Jersey City isn’t a war zone.
In LA, you’d be in Compton dodging bullets for those prices.
Weather forecast for Chicago coming up is at least 8 days in a row where the high temp doesn't make it to 20.
I think all three have major challenges. The parts of Los Angeles that are livable have Bay Area real estate prices with lower wages. You have to go east of Pasadena and into bland Inland Empire cities to get away from that but that puts you even further away from good paying jobs. This is reflected in the fact that LA has the highest ratio of housing costs/wages in the country.
New York is actually reasonable for suburban home prices given its transit network. The cost per square foot of living in Darien, Greenwich, or upscale Westchester is lower than just about anywhere in the Bay Area and is about 1/4-1/2 of what it is in places like San Mateo or Mountain View. But its core industry, financial services, is not growing. Its strong in tech, but not strong enough given its size.
Chicago, in addition to the ice box climate, has a yesterday economy. Weak in tech, especially for its size, and it shares NYC's challenges with financial services. But if you can get past the weather and modest job opps, very affordable. Also get a real urban experience you won't get in other places that affordable with the possible exception of Philly.
These three all share remarkably inept state and local government owned by public sector unions stopping any and all policy innovation. But NY is probably best positioned to come back.
Weather forecast for Chicago coming up is at least 8 days in a row where the high temp doesn't make it to 20.
I think all three have major challenges. The parts of Los Angeles that are livable have Bay Area real estate prices with lower wages. You have to go east of Pasadena and into bland Inland Empire cities to get away from that but that puts you even further away from good paying jobs. This is reflected in the fact that LA has the highest ratio of housing costs/wages in the country.
New York is actually reasonable for suburban home prices given its transit network. The cost per square foot of living in Darien, Greenwich, or upscale Westchester is lower than just about anywhere in the Bay Area and is about 1/4-1/2 of what it is in places like San Mateo or Mountain View. But its core industry, financial services, is not growing. Its strong in tech, but not strong enough given its size.
Chicago, in addition to the ice box climate, has a yesterday economy. Weak in tech, especially for its size, and it shares NYC's challenges with financial services. But if you can get past the weather and modest job opps, very affordable. Also get a real urban experience you won't get in other places that affordable with the possible exception of Philly.
These three all share remarkably inept state and local government owned by public sector unions stopping any and all policy innovation. But NY is probably best positioned to come back.
I can't get over the weather thing with Chicago. Mild December, decent January, and now some cold weather. When I think of all the Nor'easters hitting the east coast, there is no comparison. I have been riding my bike for most of the winter here in Chicago in the A.M., and am a CA native. The summers here are great.
Weather forecast for Chicago coming up is at least 8 days in a row where the high temp doesn't make it to 20.
I think all three have major challenges. The parts of Los Angeles that are livable have Bay Area real estate prices with lower wages. You have to go east of Pasadena and into bland Inland Empire cities to get away from that but that puts you even further away from good paying jobs. This is reflected in the fact that LA has the highest ratio of housing costs/wages in the country.
New York is actually reasonable for suburban home prices given its transit network. The cost per square foot of living in Darien, Greenwich, or upscale Westchester is lower than just about anywhere in the Bay Area and is about 1/4-1/2 of what it is in places like San Mateo or Mountain View. But its core industry, financial services, is not growing. Its strong in tech, but not strong enough given its size.
Chicago, in addition to the ice box climate, has a yesterday economy. Weak in tech, especially for its size, and it shares NYC's challenges with financial services. But if you can get past the weather and modest job opps, very affordable. Also get a real urban experience you won't get in other places that affordable with the possible exception of Philly.
These three all share remarkably inept state and local government owned by public sector unions stopping any and all policy innovation. But NY is probably best positioned to come back.
Have to disagree that Chicago is weak in tech. I know that you gave the caveat, "especially for its size," but Chicago has a growing tech scene, and a lot of its growth started under Rahm Emmanuel.
I think Chicago is later to the game than some cities, but I wouldn't define it's tech as "weak." It is younger in the tech industry, but it is developing a lot of tech innovation:
I agree with you that Chicago doesn't have the reputation as a "tech city," but it is on almost all of the Top 20 tech city lists and there is a huge amount of growth in tech in Chicago over the last 5-10 years, so I wouldn't call it "weak" either. Given it's more moderate COL too, I think it will continue to develop it's tech niche. That's why it stayed in the running for Amazon so long. Somewhat unrelated, but local partnerships with tech companies have been leveraged for Chicago's COVID19 public health real-time monitoring, and has been touted as a model for many other cities.
Totally disagree with you. Chicago is pretty well received and liked on this site. The only time it gets hit on is when it is compared to the top tier cities. Philly on the other hand gets ripped to shreds for some odd reason. The inaccuracies in perception about Philly are just hard to swallow. I lived in Philly and I often wonder if posters have it confused with another city lol. You would think that North Philly represents the entire city the way posters talk about it. I digress, I love Chicago and Philly
I've seen Chicago knocked down in the skyline thread, most world class thread, best downtown thread, crime threads, and a few others. Maybe its just a few posters out to get Chicago (common on here for every city).
And I agree Philadelphia does not get the treatment it deserves from some on here, but (until Covid) I noticed a lot more positive statements since the city was entering a renaissance period.
I hope Chicago can reverse its population loss though. The city is no less vibrant or well-off than before, but years of loss will eventually result in problems (I know Illinois is to blame for some of the issues).
Philadelphia is in a better position being close to New York and the natural overflow of residents and business, the only missing link is better leadership to continue the renaissance.
But I love both of them. They are my favorite big cities. (even more than New York )
Have to disagree that Chicago is weak in tech. I know that you gave the caveat, "especially for its size," but Chicago has a growing tech scene, and a lot of its growth started under Rahm Emmanuel.
I think Chicago is later to the game than some cities, but I wouldn't define it's tech as "weak." It is younger in the tech industry, but it is developing a lot of tech innovation:
I agree with you that Chicago doesn't have the reputation as a "tech city," but it is on almost all of the Top 20 tech city lists and there is a huge amount of growth in tech in Chicago over the last 5-10 years, so I wouldn't call it "weak" either. Given it's more moderate COL too, I think it will continue to develop it's tech niche. That's why it stayed in the running for Amazon so long. Somewhat unrelated, but local partnerships with tech companies have been leveraged for Chicago's COVID19 public health real-time monitoring, and has been touted as a model for many other cities.
My brother has a Master's Degree in Computer Science from the U of IL. This is a very highly ranked school for this degree...even above Harvard. Anyway, he has always worked in Chicago, among many with this same degree, and many who came to Chicago to work in this field. I think selling Chicago short in this field is wrong...it's definitely a growing tech city. My brother has been there for decades in this field, and is still being approached by companies in the Bay Area. Has not, and will not, leave Chicago. For the prevalent Boomer Bashers on this site, he is a Boomer, and still being recruited...heavily. Something to be said, for decades of growing expertise vs. fresh out of college.
I've seen Chicago knocked down in the skyline thread, most world class thread, best downtown thread, crime threads, and a few others. Maybe its just a few posters out to get Chicago (common on here for every city).
And I agree Philadelphia does not get the treatment it deserves from some on here, but (until Covid) I noticed a lot more positive statements since the city was entering a renaissance period.
I hope Chicago can reverse its population loss though. The city is no less vibrant or well-off than before, but years of loss will eventually result in problems (I know Illinois is to blame for some of the issues).
Philadelphia is in a better position being close to New York and the natural overflow of residents and business, the only missing link is better leadership to continue the renaissance.
But I love both of them. They are my favorite big cities. (even more than New York )
Chicago and Philadelphia are probably 2 of my favorite cities too.
It's hard to describe, but they both still have a "soul" that is lacking in NYC or LA. By that, I mean they've largely avoided the huge wave of gentrification and displacement of natives that has sort of changed the culture of the latter 2 cities.
I've seen Chicago knocked down in the skyline thread, most world class thread, best downtown thread, crime threads, and a few others. Maybe its just a few posters out to get Chicago (common on here for every city).
And I agree Philadelphia does not get the treatment it deserves from some on here, but (until Covid) I noticed a lot more positive statements since the city was entering a renaissance period.
I hope Chicago can reverse its population loss though. The city is no less vibrant or well-off than before, but years of loss will eventually result in problems (I know Illinois is to blame for some of the issues).
Philadelphia is in a better position being close to New York and the natural overflow of residents and business, the only missing link is better leadership to continue the renaissance.
But I love both of them. They are my favorite big cities. (even more than New York )
Everytime I go to Chicago, I like it even more. It's crept up on my list and made it into my top 5 favorite cities with DC, Boston, Portland Me and Seattle. (no order)
I think one big point that has been missed on this site so far is there is a lot of work deep in the pipeline including a 42 million square foot massive project. Chicago is less expensive than NYC, BOS, DC and SF while still being extremely dense and has the 2nd best urbanity in the country. Prices are lower here. There's a demand to build. It seems like the perfect formula for chicago.
The suburbs of Chicago are well built, in my opinion are some of the best in the country. If not the best (sorry Boston, Nj And CT..) They are walkable, transit oriented and less expensive than big city counterparts. Access to O'Hare with two airline hubs and flights around the globe is another huge win for Chicago.
Chicagos train system is phenomenal. I remember I was going to Dusseldorf, Germany and my passport was expiring 5 months to my departure date. They wouldn't let me leave because of the new 6 month rule. So I had to get my passport renewed before so could leave. I went downtown from O'Hare, got my passport renewed and trained back up to O'Hare in less than 2 hours. Flight ended up being delayed 4 hours (AA for you...) made it. But if it was Boston, NY, Philly I would have missed my flight. The accessibility from airport to the loop is A++.
Point is, I see nothing but a bright future for Chicago. The crime and blight is the biggest challenge Chicago faces right now. But I'm hopeful they can overcome it.
Everytime I go to Chicago, I like it even more. It's crept up on my list and made it into my top 5 favorite cities with DC, Boston, Portland Me and Seattle. (no order)
I think one big point that has been missed on this site so far is there is a lot of work deep in the pipeline including a 42 million square foot massive project. Chicago is less expensive than NYC, BOS, DC and SF while still being extremely dense and has the 2nd best urbanity in the country. Prices are lower here. There's a demand to build. It seems like the perfect formula for chicago.
The suburbs of Chicago are well built, in my opinion are some of the best in the country. If not the best (sorry Boston, Nj And CT..) They are walkable, transit oriented and less expensive than big city counterparts. Access to O'Hare with two airline hubs and flights around the globe is another huge win for Chicago.
Chicagos train system is phenomenal. I remember I was going to Dusseldorf, Germany and my passport was expiring 5 months to my departure date. They wouldn't let me leave because of the new 6 month rule. So I had to get my passport renewed before so could leave. I went downtown from O'Hare, got my passport renewed and trained back up to O'Hare in less than 2 hours. Flight ended up being delayed 4 hours (AA for you...) made it. But if it was Boston, NY, Philly I would have missed my flight. The accessibility from airport to the loop is A++.
Point is, I see nothing but a bright future for Chicago. The crime and blight is the biggest challenge Chicago faces right now. But I'm hopeful they can overcome it.
Great post. I totally agree with this one. I moved to Chicago not knowing the city and believing stereotypes about it, some true and some not true. While it does have crime issues, as most cities do these days, it is a solid city. Pre-covid, summers were fabulous, where you literally work in the Loop, take off half a day, walk down Michigan Ave. with the crowds and shopping, and go to the beach. Wrigley Field, great food, and down to earth people sealed it for me. To hear people say it lacks tech, is an ice box, blah blah blah only points to a lack of research on their part. I am totally with you on the suburban part, Massachoisetts, my suburban area is beautiful to begin with, and is constantly upgrading. Thank you for a positive outside perspective.
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