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Philadelphia is not in the South, and I know of no one who has ever considered it to be. And Baltimore isn't really in the South either, though there are certainly hints of a Southern influence there. It's in a gray area, though it leans toward the North. Indeed, I would agree with the notion that Baltimore is the southernmost city in the North. Washington, I would consider to be on the boundary, neither North nor South.
In case you're wondering, I've lived in Philadelphia for 10 years and in the suburbs of Baltimore for 27 years. So I'm not an outsider to either of these places.
You didn't answer the question. I asked WHY isn't Philly considered "barely northern" even though its Metro extends into the south? Philly has more of an argument for being southern than Baltimore being "barely" northern. None of the Baltimore metro extends into the northeast.
You didn't answer the question. I asked WHY isn't Philly considered "barely northern" even though its Metro extends into the south? Philly has more of an argument for being southern than Baltimore being "barely" northern. None of the Baltimore metro extends into the northeast.
No one has an answer.
Define your definition of “northeast”
Why not just add NYC to the south at this point seeing by administrative boundaries NYC’s southern most point on Staten Island is a hair over 46 miles (as the crow flies) from Philly’s northern most boundary.
The OMB delineates metropolitan areas based on Census data. And it is the data that is displaying the trends I spoke of.
Raleigh and Durham actually were a singular MSA before the 2003 revisions, are still more or less viewed as such, and are expected to recombine sometime in the near future.
For some reason, it hasn't done any redesignations in a century. Even so, you should realize that official sources such as the Census Bureau are meant to reflect reality and not create it. And that isn't the only official source that designates geographical categories. To look at the Census Bureau alone without considering other sources is pretty shortsighted.
You're really taking all of this too seriously, as if anything that's been said of the city applies to you personally. "DC's bedwench"????? What the hell???? And I also have no idea why you feel as though Baltimore being reminiscent of a smaller Philadelphia in some key ways is so objectionable when it is very common for smaller cities to resemble a larger city in close proximity. Understandably, some people may exaggerate the similarities between Baltimore and Philadelphia, but that doesn't mean there are absolutely none.
Baltimore isn't an unqualified 100% Southern city; there are Southern undertones present but that's about as far as it goes. And at the end of the day, being Southern largely revolves around self-identification and Baltimore doesn't much self-identify as Southern. As I've stated before, historically (in the antebellum era) to be a city was already to be un-Southern in fundamental ways. Then to be a large industrial city in a border state that did not secede and was a major Great Migration destination, along with other characteristics (large immigrant communities, large Catholic presence, voting patterns, etc) seriously and truly dilutes Baltimore's Southernness in key ways.
The fact that you remain out on this island on your own, both on C-D and in real life really says it all. You're not even willing to bend a little bit on this Southern thing which is just beyond perpelexing. I honestly don't see the logic of trying so hard or what you hope to achieve by dying on this hill.
You are aware that Baltimore was a larger city than Philly at one point, right? Did Philly resemble the larger Baltimore at that point?
This has always been my thing: everything that people say makes Baltimore northern and also be stated as the south having those traits. Also, you haven't been able to tell me when and how Baltimore became part of the northeast. Furthermore, you and everybody on City Data attached Baltimore to a another to its south.
I don't care what everybody thinks. It means that nobody knows what they're talking about.
Why not just add NYC to the south at this point seeing by administrative boundaries NYC’s southern most point on Staten Island is a hair over 46 miles (as the crow flies) from Philly’s northern most boundary.
Because Philly is substantially more in line with NYC & Boston more in culturally, economically & architecturally & structurally than it is with decisively southern places like Atlanta or Charlotte
You didn't answer the question. I asked WHY isn't Philly considered "barely northern" even though its Metro extends into the south? Philly has more of an argument for being southern than Baltimore being "barely" northern. None of the Baltimore metro extends into the northeast.
No one has an answer.
Historically it's very possible that Philadelphia was considered "barely Northern" since it was a border city in a free state. It had a large population of free Blacks and was a magnet for runaway slaves, which resulted in many free Blacks being kidnapped and sold into slavery and there was a near constant presence of slave patrolmen looking for runaways to catch and return to their masters. There was both safety (for Blacks) and opportunity (for kidnappers and trackers) in numbers in the Philadelphia area given its "barely Northern" geographical position.
Otherwise, to be Northern historically was to be industrialized, urbanized, reliant on the free market, etc. whereas the South was an agrarian region whose economy depended on slave labor. Philadelphia was one of America's early big cities and as such has always had a decidedly Northern character (albeit with a few Southern influences). And although located within a Southern slave state and serving as a port for slaves itself, Baltimore--an industrial city with large immigrant populations as well as a sizable free Black population--was never widely considered to be an unqualified Southern city as to be such was deemed virtually incompatible to a large degree. Also while Delaware was a slave state, it wasn't orginally considered a Southern state. When states were first grouped into regions in 1850, Delaware was included as one of the Middle States (and before this, one of the Middle Colonies). It was sometime later that it shifted to the South Atlantic States region. Cecil County, MD is included in Philadelphia's MSA but it only has 101K people and is essentially "daisy-chained" into the metro. It has little to no connection to Philadelphia itself.
Philadelphia had urban industrializing influences to the south (Wilmington, Baltimore), north (NYC, Newark), east (Trenton, Camden), and west (other PA cities). Baltimore had Philly to the northeast and Pittsburgh to the northwest but DC wasn't an industrial city which made a difference.
You are aware that Baltimore was a larger city than Philly at one point, right? Did Philly resemble the larger Baltimore at that point?
It would make sense if it did and I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. That's not controversial in the least.
Quote:
This has always been my thing: everything that people say makes Baltimore northern and also be stated as the south having those traits. Also, you haven't been able to tell me when and how Baltimore became part of the northeast. Furthermore, you and everybody on City Data attached Baltimore to a another to its south.
I don't care what everybody thinks. It means that nobody knows what they're talking about.
Can you restate this a bit more plainly? I'm not following your train of thought here. I suspect you just missed a word here or there which is causing the misunderstanding.
Because Philly is substantially more in line with NYC & Boston more in culturally, economically & architecturally & structurally than it is with decisively southern places like Atlanta or Charlotte
Right, and Baltimore is Culturally & economically, Historically, demographically in line with DC, Richmond, Hampton Roads than it is to NYC and Boston. If Baltimore isn't economically & structurally similar to Charlotte and Atlanta, then, by your logic, Baltimore was never southern to begin with. However, everybody says that it WAS southern at one point. So how did Baltimore become Northeastern if it's further strengthening it's relationship with other cities in the south (DC, Richmond..etc)
You're all contradicting yourselves by debating me on this.
It would make sense if it did and I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. That's not controversial in the least.
Can you restate this a bit more plainly? I'm not following your train of thought here. I suspect you just missed a word here or there which is causing the misunderstanding.
I screwed that sentence up. Sorry about that.
If Baltimore was once considered a southern city, when and how did it become northeastern?
Right, and Baltimore is Culturally & economically, Historically, demographically in line with DC, Richmond, Hampton Roads than it is to NYC and Boston. If Baltimore isn't economically & structurally similar to Charlotte and Atlanta, then, by your logic, Baltimore was never southern to begin with. However, everybody says that it WAS southern at one point. So how did Baltimore become Northeastern if it's further strengthening it's relationship with other cities in the south (DC, Richmond..etc)
You're all contradicting yourselves by debating me on this.
Would you consider a modern building built back in 1990’s modern by today’s standards? No. Same principle applies...
Was Baltimore considered southern during the 19th century when it was the southern most major city on the Eastern seaboard and DC was still a town? Sure... Seeing its not the 19th century and we are currently in 2021 times and definitions have moved.
Baltimore is strengthening its relationship with every city on the eastern seaboard, not just cities in the south.
Last edited by Joakim3; 03-28-2021 at 09:52 PM..
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