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Pre1900 building styles, wooded/tree heavy, windy roads and a central town square that spreads to SFHs. Affluent with good schools.
Very similar..
Raleigh itself has little history of heavy industry, no historic immigrant communities, low population density, very high levels of domestic migration, too few actual 'hoods, little in the way of Puerto Rican/Dominican culture, etc. Those are some major strikes against a Northeastern feel from my perspective.
Raleigh itself has little history of heavy industry, no historic immigrant communities, low population density, very high levels of domestic migration, too few actual 'hoods, little in the way of Puerto Rican/Dominican culture, etc. Those are some major strikes against a Northeastern feel from my perspective.
Well said. "Pre-1900 building styles, wooded/tree heavy, windy roads, affluence, good schools," etc. are not inherent to the Northeast, either. The most prominent examples of such may be concentrated in the Northeast, but they're not exclusive to it. And regarding pre-1900 buildings, I'd argue Raleigh is actually much more similar to Charlotte than to your quintessential Northeastern city. The reality is, neither of these two NC cities are awash in pre-war or earlier architecture; the physical history is simply on a smaller scale.
Regarding "good schools," if you'll allow me to ramble, what's interesting to note about Raleigh is that it actually diverged paths from not only most of its Southern peers, but also historically prominent and wealthy Northeastern cities, such as Buffalo, following the Civil Rights era. This exact comparison is studied and discussed heavily in the book Hope and Despair in the American City: Why There Are No Bad Schools in Raleigh.
In the 1970s, Raleigh leaders decided to merge city and suburban schools, essentially desegregating the educational system on a county-wide basis. Amid uncertainty and pushback from some, Raleigh had the foresight (and luck, no doubt) to distribute social and economic assets relatively evenly throughout all its schools in both the city and the county to ensure that no one school was overwhelmed by the neediest and most disadvantaged students. To help achieve this, the system implemented special magnet and IB programs at certain schools and allowed parents the option of sending their kids to their locally assigned school or one elsewhere. In contrast, Buffalo and most other places around the country simply restricted desegregation to only the inner city, where schools were overloaded with socioeconomically challenged minority students, exacerbating the white flight issue along with good old fashioned racism.
Here's a quote from the book itself speaking to Raleigh's success: "I saw little resistance to reform in the five high schools I visited. On the contrary, they had begun to adapt the kinds of approaches that had worked in the grade schools. This was nowhere more evident than at Broughton High, once a segregated high school for the white elite in an old west Raleigh neighborhood. It is still an outstanding high school with a wide range of Advanced Placement courses and the intellectually challenging International Baccalaureate program. While a third of Broughton students are nonwhite and nearly a fifth are from poor families, the white elite has not abandoned the school." Broughton is the flagship of the WCPSS school system and where many of the "old money" choose to send their kids over private ones.
On the overall topic of the thread, I'd argue Raleigh is more similar to Charlotte, and Durham slightly more similar to Richmond. For Raleigh-Durham as a whole, I'll give the nod to Charlotte.
I've tickled the woke mob with my passing comments.
Murksiderock, quick, send off your army of nonbinaries and trans to re-educate me with their art. I've fallen out of line.
I'll be in the Richmond suburbs -- but warn them of the long distances they'll have to travel between lattes. Advise them also to change out of their flood pants, for the ground ivy can irritate and I wouldn't want them to succumb to the forces of nature before finding me.
It's true that Charlotte and the Triangle developed in a different manner. Charlotte passed Richmond in population during the 1970s, but Richmond has an urban and older feel compared to North Carolina's metros. Winston-Salem is comparable, but on a smaller scale.
Culturally, do you believe the three metros are similar or not really? All three are still viewed as "southern," despite an influx of transplants over the years.
Wow, that is exactly not what I was saying.
Raleigh and Charlotte both grew under the same develop+annex strategy that was available to them until 2012. These annexations fundamentally changed the nature and make-up of the both cities as the grew more suburban and less dense within their city limits. While that free-wheeling access to forced annexation into the city was stopped by the state less than 10 years ago, and while both cities are focusing on infill development among various nodes, both are left with large swaths of suburban areas that wield political power and influence over their cities. This is especially true for Charlotte with its more than 300 square miles of land, and lower overall density than Raleigh. This leaves Raleigh's density between Richmond's and Charlotte's.
Additionally, both Charlotte and Raleigh share political power with their respective counties with some services fulfilled by the county while others are provided by the city. City voters also vote for county positions, but not vice versa. Virginia has independent cities while NC does not. Nowhere is that more evident than through schools. Both Charlotte and Raleigh are cities that send their children to school in a county wide system that allows equity issues to be addressed more broadly, while that mechanism doesn't exist in Richmond vs Henrico/Chesterfield.
While I'm sure that things have changed in Richmond since it has become more en vogue to live in America's cities again, I can't erase a memory from a visit to my brother and his wife while they were living in greater Richmond while she pursued her master's degree. As he drove me down one particular street, he told me to guess where Richmond ended and the county began. Well, it was easy because it was a visibly stark contrast when we crossed that line. You could visibly see where the money was, and where it wasn't. Annexation fights in Richmond that go back 50+ years and resulted in state law that allowed counties of a certain size (including Chesterfield and Henrico) to be immune from annexation by cities like Richmond is a telling story about how differently municipal issues are addressed between the two states, and how those with money have had on outsized influence on municipal law at the state level.
An advantage that a smaller city like Richmond may have as money and the desire to be in the city increases is that it has a smaller footprint to fund/operate going forward. While that's still a tall mountain to climb, and while it creates significant social/equity issues like displacement of the poor, etc., Charlotte and Raleigh face a very different future: one of vast swaths of aging suburban infrastructure that will be very expensive to maintain and replace. To combat that, both cities are seeing rapid urbanization at their cores, and in denser new nodes within their suburban footprints to generate the revenues necessary for long term viability. No doubt that they too are facing significant social/equity issues as well, but it's objectively just a slice of the overall issues that they face.
I've tickled the woke mob with my passing comments.
Murksiderock, quick, send off your army of nonbinaries and trans to re-educate me with their art. I've fallen out of line.
I'll be in the Richmond suburbs -- but warn them of the long distances they'll have to travel between lattes. Advise them also to change out of their flood pants, for the ground ivy can irritate and I wouldn't want them to succumb to the forces of nature before finding me.
No one wants to find you lol. You just made false statements, were called out on them(by NUMEROUS reputable posters, even those not from VA), and decided to ignore everything that people wrote to you(even invites to be educated in person) just to type this above. Its fine. No one is upset with you. We just want better for you lol. You don't have anything to add to the OP because you can't, you don't currently have the depth. But we can help you change that!
No one wants to find you lol. You just made false statements, were called out on them(by NUMEROUS reputable posters, even those not from VA), and decided to ignore everything that people wrote to you(even invites to be educated in person) just to type this above. Its fine. No one is upset with you. We just want better for you lol. You don't have anything to add to the OP because you can't, you don't currently have the depth. But we can help you change that!
I made one false statement -- where right after I said, "I stand corrected".
From my vantage of living in the Richmond suburbs (applies also to the west end and large swaths of the southside closest to the river) -- I don't see a "heavy, heavy black influence". These are popular parts of Richmond that most tourists visit -- think Pony Pasture, Belle Isle, Browns Island, etc. Contrast this to Charlotte, where even the touristy spots are brimming with black cultural influence.
Richmond might have a higher percentage of blacks living in the city but Charlotte has more blacks living all over the city in total, raw numbers -- clearly that has an outsized effect on its culture.
I used to work downtown and yes there, and points north and east were more black. The moment you left those areas you felt like your were outside of the black cultural sphere -- more or less.
A lot of this depends on where you are in Richmond and increasingly, I would argue also, what your interests are.
I'm not a redneck btw and appreciate the contributions of all races to our city and region.
I made one false statement -- where right after I said, "I stand corrected".
From my vantage of living in the Richmond suburbs (applies also to the west end and large swaths of the southside closest to the river) -- I don't see a "heavy, heavy black influence". These are popular parts of Richmond that most tourists visit -- think Pony Pasture, Belle Isle, Browns Island, etc. Contrast this to Charlotte, where even the touristy spots are brimming with black cultural influence.
Richmond might have a higher percentage of blacks living in the city but Charlotte has more blacks living all over the city in total, raw numbers -- clearly that has an outsized effect on its culture.
I used to work downtown and yes there, and points north and east were more black. The moment you left those areas you felt like your were outside of the black cultural sphere -- more or less.
A lot of this depends on where you are in Richmond and increasingly, I would argue also, what your interests are.
I'm not a redneck btw and appreciate the contributions of all races to our city and region.
Henrico county is like 30percent African American, Chesterfield is 25. Its ok. We get it. You're in the VA forum right now telling people Charlottesville is closer to DC than Richmond is when you can google to find out that, that is not true. One of your first posts on city data is a thread you created titled "The Richmond area is solidly Red" lol. For some reason you are just fond of making demonstrably false statements about Richmond. Its your right to do so. Its also ours to tell the truth. People have offered to take you around town and educate you. If you don't want the knowledge just say that.
Edit: I didn't even realize that you are using Belle Isle, Brown's Island and the James River Park system to talk about the lack of Black cultural influence? Its literally where the Richmond slave trail starts. Again, depth and experience. Henry Box Brown's memorial is at the Canal walk. Not to mention the cultural events that happen at Brown's Island. Tank and the Bangas are scheduled to perform there this summer. I hate to keep saying this, but one starts to wonder if you've been to these places lol. Stone Soul is one of the biggest outdoor festivals in the city and it has traditionally taken place on Brown's Island.
I've tickled the woke mob with my passing comments.
Murksiderock, quick, send off your army of nonbinaries and trans to re-educate me with their art. I've fallen out of line.
I'll be in the Richmond suburbs -- but warn them of the long distances they'll have to travel between lattes. Advise them also to change out of their flood pants, for the ground ivy can irritate and I wouldn't want them to succumb to the forces of nature before finding me.
Bless your heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupiter1162
From my vantage of living in the Richmond suburbs (applies also to the west end and large swaths of the southside closest to the river) -- I don't see a "heavy, heavy black influence". These are popular parts of Richmond that most tourists visit -- think Pony Pasture, Belle Isle, Browns Island, etc. Contrast this to Charlotte, where even the touristy spots are brimming with black cultural influence.
Charlotte doesn't have "touristy spots" as it is not a leisure tourist city and if you're talking about attractions like Carowinds, the Whitewater National Center, Charlotte Motor Speedway, etc. or its large venues that host gatherings such as the convention center or the Spectrum Center in Uptown, then no, those are not areas "brimming with black cultural influence." The culturally Blackest part of Charlotte is the West Trade St./Beatties Ford Rd. corridor, and there's nothing at all "touristy" about it.
Quote:
Richmond might have a higher percentage of blacks living in the city but Charlotte has more blacks living all over the city in total, raw numbers -- clearly that has an outsized effect on its culture.
This is the extent of your argument and that's why you're mistaken. Cultural influence includes very tangible things which we've mentioned several times in this thread as well as the historical impact of a population on its city. All you're arguing is "Charlotte has a larger Black population; therefore it has a larger Black cultural influence." It doesn't quite work that way. Many Black folks in NC could argue that Durham is actually the city in the state with the most Black cultural influence and again, that is due to the historical importance of its Black population as well as its longstanding cultural institutions.
You simply have absolutely no idea what you're talking about--at all.
The observation about the city of Richmond versus the county is so curious to me. I’m not sure which road you were on but on every road I know of the city is the nicer, more expensive and lively side of the line. Development patterns change at the county line. Sidewalks and street lights disappear, the houses look like tract housing and they (and the businesses) are set back from the road. The whole aesthetic is junky and cheap. Farther out from the city limits the suburbs start to look nice because the development is more recent and they learned from the mistakes of the 60’s and 70’s (when the suburbs abutting Richmond were built).
Raleigh and Charlotte both grew under the same develop+annex strategy that was available to them until 2012. These annexations fundamentally changed the nature and make-up of the both cities as the grew more suburban and less dense within their city limits. While that free-wheeling access to forced annexation into the city was stopped by the state less than 10 years ago, and while both cities are focusing on infill development among various nodes, both are left with large swaths of suburban areas that wield political power and influence over their cities. This is especially true for Charlotte with its more than 300 square miles of land, and lower overall density than Raleigh. This leaves Raleigh's density between Richmond's and Charlotte's.
Additionally, both Charlotte and Raleigh share political power with their respective counties with some services fulfilled by the county while others are provided by the city. City voters also vote for county positions, but not vice versa. Virginia has independent cities while NC does not. Nowhere is that more evident than through schools. Both Charlotte and Raleigh are cities that send their children to school in a county wide system that allows equity issues to be addressed more broadly, while that mechanism doesn't exist in Richmond vs Henrico/Chesterfield.
While I'm sure that things have changed in Richmond since it has become more en vogue to live in America's cities again, I can't erase a memory from a visit to my brother and his wife while they were living in greater Richmond while she pursued her master's degree. As he drove me down one particular street, he told me to guess where Richmond ended and the county began. Well, it was easy because it was a visibly stark contrast when we crossed that line. You could visibly see where the money was, and where it wasn't. Annexation fights in Richmond that go back 50+ years and resulted in state law that allowed counties of a certain size (including Chesterfield and Henrico) to be immune from annexation by cities like Richmond is a telling story about how differently municipal issues are addressed between the two states, and how those with money have had on outsized influence on municipal law at the state level.
An advantage that a smaller city like Richmond may have as money and the desire to be in the city increases is that it has a smaller footprint to fund/operate going forward. While that's still a tall mountain to climb, and while it creates significant social/equity issues like displacement of the poor, etc., Charlotte and Raleigh face a very different future: one of vast swaths of aging suburban infrastructure that will be very expensive to maintain and replace. To combat that, both cities are seeing rapid urbanization at their cores, and in denser new nodes within their suburban footprints to generate the revenues necessary for long term viability. No doubt that they too are facing significant social/equity issues as well, but it's objectively just a slice of the overall issues that they face.
Sorry, I meant to say that Charlotte and the Triangle were developed in a different manner *compared to Richmond. I agree with what you posted. The city/county divide is a little confusing at times, coming from North Carolina. That's definitely a valid difference between the two states. Even some of the small cities in Virginia are independent, such as Danville.
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