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I retract my earlier comment. I have walked around NO outside the French Quarter though I didn't grocery shop. Just walked.
I looked up zip code populations and they show that Miami is more dense and has more people living in dense zip codes (the densest NO zip codes are centrally located and don't include uninhabitable land), but it shows that New Orleans is closer to Miami than it is to Memphis. Kind of in the middle, but it has much higher peaks. My personal opinion is that it's nothing special outside the French Quarter, but that's just my opinion.
There's not a single city in the south that keeps its urban form for as long as New Orleans does.
Does the Marigny not impress you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by elchevere
Maybe because rural and most suburban areas don’t have concentration of tall buildings, which often are associated with urban areas (see NYC, Chi, etc and, yes, Miami).
That being said I lost track of the number of times people on CD have incredulously said there is no pedestrian (or bicycle) traffic or urban feel in “tall building” Brickell—there certainly is, if not at NYC, Chi or SF levels....there also are urban areas in Miami that are not dominated by tall buildings—South Beach, mid Beach, Wynwood, Design District, Calle Ocho (Little Havana), Coconut Grove (which would be considered an urban neighborhood in Portland or Dallas yet somehow does not count as one in Miami).
That’s not to say there aren’t tall building areas with nothing to walk to either (Millionaires Row, Sunny Isles, Edgewater etc) and most/all of inland Miami away from the ocean coast or bay is suburban.
In the sunbelt, tall towers often scream suburban development.
The extreme heat always works against public transit. Houston is still majority autocentric, despite having the largest bus fleet in the South. Phoenix is the only major American desert city comparable with the major Middle East desert cities.
Air Conditioning, both at-home and in-the-car, is the defining characteristic of a Sunbelt city. The preference of automobiles driven by air conditioning demands during the long warm season has embroidered the post-war autocentric layout on the urban fabric.
Not really. At best, the hot, humid weather still ends up being merely ancillary. With regards to air-conditioning, there is no reason that it can't easily be applied to robust public transit. And obviously, cities like Bangkok, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc show that you can still have a dense, lively environments in hot, humid weather that last even longer year-round than much of the South.
The issues that people refer to in terms of being out in the sun in hot weather are actually amplified with autocentric development. For instance, more widespread concrete and full sun exposure with the building setbacks and huge surface lots. Meanwhile, dense environments can still have close buildings with narrow streets such that street-trees, building awnings, close-proximity destinations, etc work far more effectively in mitigating the effects of heat.
There's not a single city in the south that keeps its urban form for as long as New Orleans does.
Does the Marigny not impress you?
In the sunbelt, tall towers often scream suburban development.
Also is there a single city in the south that has an urban form like New Orleans CBD where it is a fully functioning live, work, play neighborhood? Lots of jobs, residential, restaurants, grocery stores, retail?
Miami has its business districts and is residential but they are not really blended and far from as walkable.
Atlanta has spots but they are islands of development instead of a full fledged neighborhood.
You are right, most skyscraper developments in the south are developed with an office park feel.
New Orleans CBD has towers with storefronts at the base, wide sidewalks, narrow streets, few set backs, lots of ground floor retail, public transit and a transit hub, it's very walkable and surface parking lots are as elusive as any major NE city.
I would say Miami is less suburban than most large southern cities but I am floored that anyone would think it's more urban than New Orleans.
New Orleans is real deal classically urban. Miami is new age office park urban.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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I live in Brickell which is most definitely business AND residential/restaurant/retail blended, not to mention highly walkable. Heck, I walk an average of 5-6 miles/daily and only put on 4K miles/year on my car.
Brickell is not an office park, nor is Coconut Grove, South Beach, mid-beach/41st Street, Bal Harbour/Surfside, Key Biscayne, Miracle Mile/downtown Coral Gables, Coral Way, Midtown/Design District, Little Havana.
Your description is definitely more applicable for inland Miami, but not good portions/majority of coastal Miami.
One city, Miami, is sometimes referred to as the “Sixth Borough” with Brickell reminding me of the Battery Park section of Manhattan whereas SoBe reminds me a bit of Santa Monica.
If there is a knock about Miami’s urbanity, it’s not that it is not urban but the urban areas described above are not all interconnected—though it’s not as though they are very far from one another either. I describe it as being a more compact version of LA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atadytic19
Also is there a single city in the south that has an urban form like New Orleans CBD where it is a fully functioning live, work, play neighborhood? Lots of jobs, residential, restaurants, grocery stores, retail?
Miami has its business districts and is residential but they are not really blended and far from as walkable.
Atlanta has spots but they are islands of development instead of a full fledged neighborhood.
You are right, most skyscraper developments in the south are developed with an office park feel.
New Orleans CBD has towers with storefronts at the base, wide sidewalks, narrow streets, few set backs, lots of ground floor retail, public transit and a transit hub, it's very walkable and surface parking lots are as elusive as any major NE city.
I would say Miami is less suburban than most large southern cities but I am floored that anyone would think it's more urban than New Orleans.
New Orleans is real deal classically urban. Miami is new age office park urban.
Last edited by elchevere; 04-15-2021 at 10:34 AM..
I live in Brickell which is most definitely business AND residential/restaurant/retail blended, not to mention highly walkable. Heck, I walk an average of 5-6 miles/daily and only put on 4K miles/year on my car.
Brickell is not an office park, nor is Coconut Grove, South Beach, mid-beach/41st Street, Bal Harbour/Surfside, Key Biscayne, Miracle Mile/downtown Coral Gables, Coral Way, Midtown/Design District, Little Havana.
If there is a knock about Miami’s urbanity, it’s not that it is not urban but the urban areas described above are not all interconnected—though it’s not as though they are very far from one another either. I describe it as being a more compact version of LA.
What kills me with Downtown Miami/Brickell is those giant overhead highways and on/off ramps cutting through, greatly reducing the walkable aspect of it, and also disconnecting neighborhoods from each other, despite their proximity.
Crossing from here to Biscayne Blvd Way is an absolute nightmare and a borderline deathwish, considering the heavy volume of traffic, no lights, and Miami drivers.
There is an awesome bike lane that runs on the Venetian Causeway, but to get there from, say Brickell, is a nightmare... There's a useful bike lane on Brickell that takes you around and down to Biscayne Blvd., but then it ends abruptly because... well, because you shouldn't bike through here
Things like these are my major complaints when it comes to Miami's urban planning and development. Lots of incoherence and confusion it seems. But hey, FDOT is in charge, and they may just be one of the lousiest companies I have ever had the joy to work alongside.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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Walking from Brickell to downtown Miami is quite easy: crossing the short drawbridge on Brickell Avenue...one can also continue walking to Bayfront Park along the sidewalk on Biscayne Blvd (I’ve done it for Ultra and other events, a 20 minute walk for me) and even the AA Arena (soon to be called FTX Arena)—though it is can be a little easier taking the convenient Metromover above ground people mover train.
Miami has also made a nice path from Brickell heading south for pedestrians and non competitive/everyday bicyclists below the Metrorail called The Underline (Miami’s answer to NYC’s High Line) whereas a real cool and relatively cheap ($6 for residents) ferry service will connect Downtown (from the Hyatt Regency dock, just across Brickell via the aforementioned drawbridge) with South Beach in 17-20 minutes and offering fantastic views. Poseidon Ferry service resumes in a few weeks.
Many serious bicyclists have no issue riding from Coconut Grove and/or Key Biscayne through Brickell and downtown to Miami Beach and back in packs and/or as part of cycling clubs, including on Brickell Ave and Biscayne Blvd without incident. It’s hard NOT to observe them on a daily basis. It’s hard to get seats at some of my favorite coffee shops (Rosetta Bakery) on mornings in Brickell because of the number of these bicyclists taking up all the tables.
From Brickell one can easily connect via Uber to Coconut Grove, Coral Way, Little Havana, Wynwood, The River District, etc within a short, consistent 10-18 minute ride all on surface streets.
Last edited by elchevere; 04-15-2021 at 01:40 PM..
I live in Brickell which is most definitely business AND residential/restaurant/retail blended, not to mention highly walkable. Heck, I walk an average of 5-6 miles/daily and only put on 4K miles/year on my car.
Brickell is not an office park, nor is Coconut Grove, South Beach, mid-beach/41st Street, Bal Harbour/Surfside, Key Biscayne, Miracle Mile/downtown Coral Gables, Coral Way, Midtown/Design District, Little Havana.
Your description is definitely more applicable for inland Miami, but not good portions/majority of coastal Miami.
One city, Miami, is sometimes referred to as the “Sixth Borough” with Brickell reminding me of the Battery Park section of Manhattan whereas SoBe reminds me a bit of Santa Monica.
If there is a knock about Miami’s urbanity, it’s not that it is not urban but the urban areas described above are not all interconnected—though it’s not as though they are very far from one another either. I describe it as being a more compact version of LA.
I do agree with you. But I chose my words in the post above carefully.
Both my cousin and my childhood best friend lives in Brickell.
As far as urbanism in the south goes, Miami is one of the better big cities.
Notice I didn't say it was not Urban, but said that it wasn't as New Orleans.
Miami is better than Atlanta or the Texas cities because
On a whole the streets in Miami are narrower, but the streets in New Orleans are narrower still.
Miami has its spots, but even Brickell it's completely built-up like New Orleans CBD. You still see drops in the built environment. Some of the builds have sizeable set backs, and although I'm a big fan of trees and office park may be too harsh but I refer to any tower that is artistically set back on the lot with room for trees as office parish.
Again I love trees but only the boulevards in New Orleans CBD have that manicured landscaping.
https://images.app.goo.gl/XC2GLekroZTE21PZA
This picture is a good example.
You look at it and for a sunbelt city it looks awesome.
Nice canyon of towers, nice sidewalks, etc,
But on the ground you notice that it is not as human scale friendly as New Orleans.
You see much narrower streets,
You don't see as large set backs,
You see more more interface of the ground floor with the streets and you see more uniformity from building to building to building.
Maybe I am nitpicking but it is a looks vs feel thing.
Miami looks like the most urban big city in the South, New Orleans feels like the most urban.
The design and use of the bottom floor in each city is a clear give away, but that is hard to judge based on a pic taken from a distance.
Either way, Miami is one of the tops for the south, but to me New Orleans is higher
Also is there a single city in the south that has an urban form like New Orleans CBD where it is a fully functioning live, work, play neighborhood? Lots of jobs, residential, restaurants, grocery stores, retail?
Austin's downtown has all of that, certainly. Not the urban form of New Orleans (nowhere in the South does IMO), but the things you list there, yes. I'd imagine areas like Uptown Dallas would also fit this.
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