Will Atlanta become the 5th largest metropolitan area in the country? (neighborhood, building)

[bu2]

Originally Posted by ShenardL

I don't know about the ITP and its equivalent but for the main cores (downtown, midtown, buckhead), Atlanta is denser compared to its equivalents in Dallas and Houston. There are also more people walking in these areas in Atlanta.

Not true about the population.

Atlanta's density in its 136 square miles is 3,685.
Houston's density in 2010 (its higher now) inside Loop 610's 96 square miles was 4,743. And the densest part of Houston is actually outside loop 610 in the Gulfton area.

The comment about preservation is true. Houston has rebuilt. Houston's midtown is townhomes, not houses. There is a lot of that in many inner city areas, whereas Atlanta has preserved a lot of SFH. Houston has very little with the lot sizes of Buckhead.

I don't think it really makes sense to have the city protect the huge lots like you have in Buckhead. More density makes sense.

[JMatl]

Originally Posted by bu2

Not true about the population.

Atlanta's density in its 136 square miles is 3,685.
Houston's density in 2010 (its higher now) inside Loop 610's 96 square miles was 4,743. And the densest part of Houston is actually outside loop 610 in the Gulfton area.

Yes, it is true. Atlanta's peak density is 54,000, in a Midtown Census tract. Neither Houston or Dallas have similar density in any tracts inside 610, or Loop 12.

The comment about preservation is true. Houston has rebuilt. Houston's midtown is townhomes, not houses. There is a lot of that in many inner city areas, whereas Atlanta has preserved a lot of SFH. Houston has very little with the lot sizes of Buckhead.

I don't think it really makes sense to have the city protect the huge lots like you have in Buckhead. More density makes sense.

And thank God Atlanta protects our beautiful SFH neighborhoods, and not just in Buckhead. I'm also grateful that we have zoning laws, unlike Houston. You yourself mentioned that Atlanta has more light industrial areas ITP than either Dallas or Houston. Well guess what, those are exactly the areas where we are packing in new density where none has existed. Check out the Howell Mill Rd & Memorial Dr corridors as prime examples, the changes are mind boggling. The Upper Westside is the newest area to experience this, as is practically anywhere adjacent to the emerging BeltLine on the South and West sides.

There is absolutely nothing Houston is doing that needs to be emulated here, nor is there any desire to.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by JMatl

Yes, it is true. Atlanta's peak density is 54,000, in a Midtown Census tract. Neither Houston or Dallas have similar density in any tracts inside 610, or Loop 12.



And thank God Atlanta protects our beautiful SFH neighborhoods, and not just in Buckhead. I'm also grateful that we have zoning laws, unlike Houston. You yourself mentioned that Atlanta has more light industrial areas ITP than either Dallas or Houston. Well guess what, those are exactly the areas where we are packing in new density where none has existed. Check out the Howell Mill Rd & Memorial Dr corridors as prime examples, the changes are mind boggling. The Upper Westside is the newest area to experience this, as is practically anywhere adjacent to the emerging BeltLine on the South and West sides.

There is absolutely nothing Houston is doing that needs to be emulated here, nor is there any desire to.

Houston has several around 70,000. Again, look around the Gulfton area.

[JMatl]

Originally Posted by bu2

Houston has several around 70,000. Again, look around the Gulfton area.

And I specifically said inside 610. Gulfton is packed with an overabundance of aging garden-style apartments, while our highest density is the heart of Midtown. I'll go with the Atlanta model.

[bryantm3]

Can we please agree to retire "upper westside" in reference to ATL?

[JMatl]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

Can we please agree to retire "upper westside" in reference to ATL?

I don't like it either. It does serve as a 'catch-all' for that general NW area, though. What do you feel is the best moniker for that part of town?

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by JMatl

Yes, it is true. Atlanta's peak density is 54,000, in a Midtown Census tract. Neither Houston or Dallas have similar density in any tracts inside 610, or Loop 12.



And thank God Atlanta protects our beautiful SFH neighborhoods, and not just in Buckhead. I'm also grateful that we have zoning laws, unlike Houston. You yourself mentioned that Atlanta has more light industrial areas ITP than either Dallas or Houston. Well guess what, those are exactly the areas where we are packing in new density where none has existed. Check out the Howell Mill Rd & Memorial Dr corridors as prime examples, the changes are mind boggling. The Upper Westside is the newest area to experience this, as is practically anywhere adjacent to the emerging BeltLine on the South and West sides.

There is absolutely nothing Houston is doing that needs to be emulated here, nor is there any desire to.

Both Houston and Dallas have several areas like this though where density is arriving where people didnt even live 10 years ago. East End Houston was basically all warehouses (famous music venue there called Warehouse Live for that reason), but the area is now full of townhomes that look like this:

(Houston) 2716 Kennedy St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/uN33iA8wAp949ri57

(Dallas) 324 Singleton Blvd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qxViU8Ez2ocCsJNA9

I wouldnt say there is nothing Houston is doing Atlanta shouldnt emulate. The city is lowering parking minimums among other things to help increase density. You xan still get your acreage property within 45 min from downtoen Houston or Dallas too just not as wealthy of areas as Buckhead. Its definitely different seeing people have that much land so close to the city and takes away from potential density, while at the same time putting more stress (ie traffic) on the sections where density was planned for. It's worked for Atlanta for the most part but it's just different. Like Houston with no zoning.

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by JMatl

I don't like it either. It does serve as a 'catch-all' for that general NW area, though. What do you feel is the best moniker for that part of town?

West Midtown should stay.

Hills Park should become West Hills Park.

“Upper Westside” should go away. The area already has great neighborhoods and neighborhood names: Whittier Mill Village, Riverside, Bolton, West Hills Park, West Highlands, Underwood Hills


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighb...ta?wprov=sfti1

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

The Houston vs ATL vs DFW arguments have been going on for a while. There was a recent thread in city vs city where Texas people made some good arguments. For example, ATL's core is more urban, but it's also a smaller core. Now that city living has been popular in the sunbelt for the last 20+ years, the cores of Dallas and Houston has been filling in nicely as well. Dallas especially has a pretty walkable core connected via rail and streetcars.



Yeah I like how ATL kept more of it's core intact. Dallas did okay with this and Houston did terribly. This is part of the reason it took them longer to connect the dots (other than having larger cores in general, especially Houston).

Overall though Atlanta definitely has the more traditional core (albeit smaller than Houston's). I hear you on the human scale thing (something the Texas two are playing catch up on), but when you consider how quickly the density drops off in Atlanta versus the consistency in the other two I don't think it matters too much. To me that's what makes the Texas two feel denser and more urban in some ways (not all). Even with ATL having several more neighborhoods with higher walkability scores, the flipside is those neighborhoods are tiny in comparison to the neighborhoods in the other city. If you were to chop up some of these larger neighborhoods in the Texas two then you'd get higher walkability scores.

Atlanta is definitely more scenic than the other two, but it's also not the only very hilly metro area out there. It's not like it had to be built as the least dense metro over 5M in the world, but it does makes for a unique layout. Always amazed at how much land on average people in ATL have, although the newer neighborhoods out there seem to be built like those in the western US with homes built very close together.

To think back on where these cities were 15-20 years ago, it's amazing to see the progress in all of them.

Dallas and Houston mostly have medium lots not small lots. And there core aren't bigger than Atlanta's in fact Atlanta is bigger. Don't confuse medium suburban home lot sizes as urban that's not there core. Which is partly what I was addressing. Density ≠ Urban.

This is why I brought out LA it doesn't matter how dense LA is on paper is not built more structurally dense than Boston or DC.


For example Hype park this the infill and density yall are taking about. Houston core was originally medium lots. So it's infilling what was a very suburban area. I'm not going to say it's not urban at all, but it's sort of still Suburban compared to traditionally urban you can literally tell.



These are what I mean by "small lots", East coast cities have rowhouse, but most American cities are tight SFH neighborhoods with Multi units. The above pics is putting multi units is more spaceout car centric environment.

below in reading order are Cleveland, Chicago, New Orleans and Atlanta. Atlanta is no where as urban as those cities but because Atlanta had a few more decades in the Victorian era than Dallas and Houston, the city has more area reflecting that the time here and there.


So Atlanta doesn't have tear down blocks but rather just in fill between and around to what already exist. Which bring me to other point.

Honestly Atlanta focusing on a smaller area may work in ATL favor. If you look at of older cities, St Louis, Cleveland, Boston, SF, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis etc there core and often there cities themselves are under like 80 sq mi. And while cities like Houston and Dallas both gain 200k Houston is 640.47 sq mi, Dallas is 339.58 sq mi. There spreading growth more then Atlanta. Atlanta gain 80k but in 136.31 sq mi most of which is probably with in 50 sq mi. While Dallas and Houston are both infilling Atlanta is infilling more in core neighborhoods. You have think about Not only does Atlanta has midtown growing but areas like west midtown, O4W, a long the Beltline, etc. Summer hill redevelop. etc.

Atlanta is going to have the more urban core, Dallas and Houston are going to have denser suburban area.

Also I said "variety of lots size". Metro Atlanta in general is a mix bag of lot sizes. And it's not just Atlanta most metros East of the Mississippi have yard variance similar to Metro Atlanta it's western metro that set yard thing. This is why pointed out the east and West thing. Metro Atlanta is built similar to DC etc.

On another note metro Atlanta would still be over 5 million in if it had half the land in just 4,000 sq mi and still be the 9th largest metro in country. Regardless that DFW and Houston have a denser metros than Atlanta would be among the top dense metros in the country in that area.

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

Both Houston and Dallas have several areas like this though where density is arriving where people didnt even live 10 years ago. East End Houston was basically all warehouses (famous music venue there called Warehouse Live for that reason), but the area is now full of townhomes that look like this:

(Houston) 2716 Kennedy St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/uN33iA8wAp949ri57

(Dallas) 324 Singleton Blvd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qxViU8Ez2ocCsJNA9

I wouldnt say there is nothing Houston is doing Atlanta shouldnt emulate. The city is lowering parking minimums among other things to help increase density. You xan still get your acreage property within 45 min from downtoen Houston or Dallas too just not as wealthy of areas as Buckhead. Its definitely different seeing people have that much land so close to the city and takes away from potential density, while at the same time putting more stress (ie traffic) on the sections where density was planned for. It's worked for Atlanta for the most part but it's just different. Like Houston with no zoning.

Spread population contracts the idea of density,

Why worry about potential density a Buckhead home take up, when the core still has significant room to infill.