In State Rivals Round 1 - Richmond vs Norfolk in 2021 (map, largest, compare)

[canalcity63]

[quote=murksiderock;61982112]There's a weird city data thing that has existed pretty much as long as this site has been active, of Norfolk being extraordinarily overrated. It starts with Tidewater homers but it isnt just them, the greater CD populace has this inflated opinion of Norfolk that generally isn't based on anything more than Nfk's historical reputation or on paper size of being larger than Richmond...

You're gonna have to explain how you give "culture" to Norfolk, what kind of culture are we talking about here?

Food, cost of living, abd urbanity are categories that strongly favor Richmond, to a degree it shouldn't even be debatable. Rich has a much more sophisticated and renown culinary scene, at all levels, from local to fine dining and everything in between. As was already mentioned by another poster, Rich is more affordable particularly Norfolk's cost of living doesn't match the degree of city you're getting for your buck...

Richmond is the significantly more urban city, this isn't even worth diving into really if one knows both cities because it's patently obvious, but I'll have to respond to the first below...

There isn't an equal degree of development between the two cities at all. Also Ghent would be a second tier neighborhood in Richmond, but its lauded as the most prominent neighborhood in Richmond...



Bruh the area you are outlining as Nfk's core is wildly suburban outside of downtown with a steep drop off in "things to do" both downtown and once you leave downtown. I lived in Nfk/The Beach for two years, you aren't talking to someone who is unfamiliar with the city...

ODU's setting is in the suburbs, this is a shining example of how quickly Nfk shifts from urban to suburban. No one in Rich cares that VCU doesn't have FBS football, college football heads in Rich get their fix via UVA or UR...

You might wanna go do your math again, "Nfk" minus The Peninsula is smaller than Greater Rich by well over 100,000 people and that gap grows every year. I'd love to respond more I'm depth but my hands are tied right now; regardless you aren't talking to someone who doesn't know Norfolk![/QUOTE

I really don't understand why people on this forum say that Norfolk is so suburban. The only area that I would really call suburban is the Military Circle area. Most of the other neighborhoods in the city were built before the widespread suburbanization that occurred in the 1950s. Ghent is definitely comparable to the Fan and Carytown. There is no way that anyone would consider it a second tier neighborhood if it were located in Richmond. Just because it is not filled with as many historical row homes doesn't mean it isn't just as vibrant of an urban neighborhood. I will admit that Carytown is more lively, but not enough that I would consider it another tier. I have lived in the downtown area of Richmond and grew up in the Norfolk area. I think Richmond is a really cool city, but I feel like people on this forum ignore Norfolk's attributes. Even though Downtown Richmond is larger it just doesn't offer as much as downtown Norfolk. Norfolk has Triple A baseball team downtown off of a light rail stop. Richmond has a double A baseball team in a more suburban area of the city. Norfolk offers an abundant mix of bars, restaurants, clubs, retail, and theatres all within the downtown area. Richmond has a more limited mix of these amenities within its downtown area. I completely understand why someone would prefer Richmond over Norfolk, but every time I came home from Richmond to Norfolk I couldn't help but appreciate the cleanliness, vibrancy, and charm of the downtown area.

[rural & red]

I live in the Richmond area and think it's more suburban than anything. The urban qualities of the area are vastly overstated and are contained to such a small geographic location. It's like a city with a couple of main streets and that's it. Ghent would not be a second rated neighborhood in Richmond, it would be another Fan or Museum District.

Let's be real people.

That said, I prefer Richmond over Norfolk. The latter is federal government-occupied town, which is not my scene.

[aquest1]

Originally Posted by rural & red

I live in the Richmond area and think it's more suburban than anything. The urban qualities of the area are vastly overstated and are contained to such a small geographic location. It's like a city with a couple of main streets and that's it. Ghent would not be a second rated neighborhood in Richmond, it would be another Fan or Museum District.

Let's be real people.

That said, I prefer Richmond over Norfolk. The latter is federal government-occupied town, which is not my scene.

But that geographic area is still comparably larger than Norfolk's central core. And the areas on the edge of Richmond's core, like Scott's Addition, Westwood and Manchester are densifying and re-developing faster. E.g., just in the last week, more announcements:

- https://richmond.com/business/watch-...ome-the-latest
- https://richmondbizsense.com/2021/09...m-the-diamond/
- https://richmondbizsense.com/2021/09...in-manchester/
- https://richmondbizsense.com/2021/09...zero-property/
etc., etc.

In downtown Norfolk, between Harbor Park, the Saint Pauls area and MacArthur, the city is promoting development to better connect each part of downtown and make it more pedestrian-friendly. There's a feeling of it being disjointed. Tidewater Gardens should also be a positive improvement when it's complete, and I would like to see Fort Norfolk developed into a tight, chic urban hood. I just don't think Richmond really has as much of a connectivity issue, imho. The whole chunk of the urban wedge between, say Hermitage Rd./W. Broad and E 21st Street of interconnected urban neighborhoods, which spans well over a thousand square blocks is all walkable. Ghent is a pretty small area in comparison to the Fan. What I would say is I would love if Richmond's Manchester/Hull St. corridor was more like Old Towne Portsmouth. But on the whole rural, I respect your POV, but you have to qualify it. Yeah, if we're talking about both regions and most mid-sized metros from 40,000 ft, above...suburban development surrounds basically all of it. I don't think anyone is arguing the whole thing is super urban. It definitely isn't.

[canalcity63]

Richmond definitely has a larger more cohesive urban area, but it needs to invest in having more leisure amenities in its downtown area. Also what most people consider Ghent in Norfolk extends from Park Place to Brambleton ave north to south and West Ghent to Monticello ave west to east. The size of that area is pretty much equivalent to the Fan, Museum district, and Carytown combined.

Ghent
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8651.../data=!3m1!1e3


The Fan, Museum District, Carytown
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ri...!4d-77.4360481

[VTinPhilly]

Originally Posted by TheMarino

Probably my #1 want for RVA is an actual downtown that's active.

I'm old enough to remember when Richmond had arguably the most "active" downtown of any southeastern city, if by "active" we mean numerous quality retail and entertainment establishments. Grace Street between 2nd and 7th Streets was lined with fine shops (Cokesbury Books, Hot Shoppes Cafeteria, Loew's Theater, Berry Burke, Greentrees, Montaldos, etc. etc.) and big department stores (Miller&Roads and Thalhimers). There were lots more stores on Broad Street as well as theaters (National, Colonial, State, Grand, Lyric). Also many restaurants and hotels (John Marshall, King Carter, and the Hotel Richmond).

On a personal note, I remember purchasing a piano from the Walter D. Moses Co. on Broad Street around 1975. This store featured multiple retail floors with a huge stock of pianos and other musical instruments. I doubt if there was anything comparable between Washington and Atlanta. Today Richmond's once vibrant downtown retail core has vanished--decamped to the suburbs taking with it much of the city's vitality.

Losing shops and restaurants is bad enough, but the last time I was in Richmond I was shocked to see at least two city blocks in the old retail core partially cleared and used for surface parking. And the entire block between 7th, 6th, Grace and Franklin Streets which once held the Atlantic Life Building and numerous retail stores is now an asphalt parking lot! Nothing will destroy the urban fabric of a city quite like replacing buildings with parking lots.

[Kevin_R]

Norfolk loses pretty easily, and I've lived in Hampton Roads for 30+ years now. Richmond is much denser than Norfolk and Ghent is in noway competing with the Fan. In fact there are so many areas of Richmond that Norfolk doesn't have an answer for including Churchill, Manchester, Jacksons Ward, Shockoe, Scott's Addition, Oregon Hill, etc. Norfolk does have Oceanview which could be one of Va's best neighborhoods with the right direction. Richmond is also building at maybe 3x the rate Norfolk is. Norfolk like all the Hampton Roads cities is growing at a snail's pace. I would also say Norfolk doesn't have an answer to Richmond suburbs, Lynnhaven and Greenbrier are built old and sprawling no connectivity, and definitely not walkable. Innsbrook and Short Pump are just built better, growing faster, and are more urban. I would add that Olde Towne Portsmouth is Norfolk's 2nd best urban neighborhood and it isn't even in Norfolk.

As a culinary graduate, Richmond is one of the better food cities in the US, Norfolk has never been mentioned in any culinary conversation I know of. Richmond also has a art scene that dwarf Norfolk by quite a bit, and VCU is what Norfolk should hope for ODU. All in all city vs city Richmond is pulling away from Norfolk and it's been very apparent since about 2010. Any Norfolk stans just go to Richmond, the amount of construction in the city right now dwarfs Norfolk by a mile and that's not an understatement, Manchester alone is probably doing more construction than DT Norfolk as a whole.

[canalcity63]

I thought that people would be a bit more objective in this thread, but some people have such strong opinions that just are not completely accurate. As someone who has spent a lot of time in both Ghent and the Fan I know that they function as very similar urban neighborhoods. The only difference is that the Fan has mostly row houses and Ghent has more of a mix of row houses, houses, and apartment buildings. Although Norfolk's other urban neighborhoods do not compete strongly against Richmond's other neighborhoods, Richmond does not have anything that compares to Ocean View. East Beach as well as all over Ocean View is filled with tons of new real estate with unmatched character. Once the retail in the area strengthens it will really be one of the most vibrant areas in the city. Norfolk has been developing a lot since 2010 as well. The light rail was completed in 2011, they just opened a one of the most expensive city libraries in the country a few years ago. There have also been numerous apartment building built downtown in that time including the Wells Fargo building which added more commercial activity in the city. ODU may not be as strong as VCU but it isn't that far behind. They just built an art museum like VCU and they are trying to merge with EVMS to obtain a medical school. In terms of suburbs Greenbrier has been working on becoming more walkable through Towne place at Greenbrier and Summit Pointe by the Dollar tree headquarters campus. Lynnhaven is still more traditional suburbs, but Virginia Beach also has Town center which is very walkable not to mention there is more residential development at the Oceanfront now.

[spencer114]

I personally like Richmond better but Norfolk is no slouch.

For years Norfolk was building like mad, especially along the light rail line. I think that the quality of the development in Norfolk has been better over the last 30 years too. The downtown apartments seem more geared towards professionals (like the condos and townhomes in the Freemason District and those condos/ apartments near PETA) whereas new apartment development in Richmond seems largely geared toward students (a function of VCU and VUU being downtown instead of separated by bodies of water, as is the case with ODU). The landscaping in Norfolk (and the maintenance of parks and medians) is wayyyy better in Norfolk than in Richmond. The new EVMS buildings are more attractive than the new VCU Medical School buildings too (but the VCU Medical campus is more dynamic).

That said, Richmond is about to ascend to the next level in both quality of construction and the number of projects. I think in the next ten years Richmond will be pulling away from Norfolk at a rate that will make it very hard for Norfolk to catch up.

I really like both cities. I grew up in Tidewater (70’s and 80’s) and am down there twice a month visiting family. But to me Richmond was and still is THE city in Virginia. I never considered moving to Norfolk whereas since moving back to Richmond after grad school in 1995, I’ve never considered leaving Richmond.

[rural & red]

Originally Posted by aquest1

But that geographic area is still comparably larger than Norfolk's central core. And the areas on the edge of Richmond's core, like Scott's Addition, Westwood and Manchester are densifying and re-developing faster. E.g., just in the last week, more announcements:

- https://richmond.com/business/watch-...ome-the-latest
- https://richmondbizsense.com/2021/09...m-the-diamond/
- https://richmondbizsense.com/2021/09...in-manchester/
- https://richmondbizsense.com/2021/09...zero-property/
etc., etc.

In downtown Norfolk, between Harbor Park, the Saint Pauls area and MacArthur, the city is promoting development to better connect each part of downtown and make it more pedestrian-friendly. There's a feeling of it being disjointed. Tidewater Gardens should also be a positive improvement when it's complete, and I would like to see Fort Norfolk developed into a tight, chic urban hood. I just don't think Richmond really has as much of a connectivity issue, imho. The whole chunk of the urban wedge between, say Hermitage Rd./W. Broad and E 21st Street of interconnected urban neighborhoods, which spans well over a thousand square blocks is all walkable. Ghent is a pretty small area in comparison to the Fan. What I would say is I would love if Richmond's Manchester/Hull St. corridor was more like Old Towne Portsmouth. But on the whole rural, I respect your POV, but you have to qualify it. Yeah, if we're talking about both regions and most mid-sized metros from 40,000 ft, above...suburban development surrounds basically all of it. I don't think anyone is arguing the whole thing is super urban. It definitely isn't.

Aquest,

I agree that Richmond has some very nice urban neighborhoods but on the whole, I think it's level of urban-ness is vastly overstated on this forum. Not saying there are no urban qualities here but that these elements are elevated to such an extent on this forum that someone unfamiliar with the city would think it's some major metropolis. Not sure why that is but I have a feeling there is a bit of an inferiority complex going on.

I have some good friends from Long Island here who love to talk about how "quaint" Richmond is and small compared to their home. They like it here because it's quiet and largely residential, leafy, spread out. They live in the far west end.

For 20 years I also lived in a neighborhood just west of Stony Point and north of Huguenot Rd, in Richmond (in the old section to the north of the new Trader Joes). It is country suburban there, and that's still technically within city limits (annexed in the 70s though). These are 1 acre properties. They have more land than many newer parts of Chesterfield.

[mpier015]

You want Richmond to be Mayberry so bad