Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yeah, I would agree with this. Pittsburgh has a very unique urban feel with it's topography and fairly densely built environment: Oakland, Lawrenceville, Bloomfield, East Liberty, Carson Street, Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, the Strip District, Mexican War Streets. It just feels a lot more urban/vibrant and frankly prosperous in the city core.
Cleveland has a few areas and they are improving. But the detached wooden housing vernacular isn't as unique or intact. The commerical districts aren't as vibrant or big as you find in Pittsburgh.
I understand totally people don't get into wood-frame houses on larger lots with driveways, and yes, this is probably the most common variant in Cleveland. But if you look around the town, there are a lot of departers from this; I won't even name all of them but check out Shaker Square or Edgewater and even Ohio City and Detroit-Shoreway. In the older areas, there are wood frames, but on smaller lots with back-alley (horse-stable) or garage access, and many of these Victorian era homes are quite attractive with detailed woodwork (think SF's 'Painted Ladies')... plus 3, sometimes 4-story brick apartment walkups are ubiquitous all over town. Visitors who actually walk around Ohio City off the main commrecial Market Square district off W. 25th are shocked (jaw-droppingly so) at the diversity (home-wise, people-wise), quaintness and vitality of the area. And the Market-Square commercial district is exploding with new large-scale apt developments such as INTRO, which is adjacent to the Red Line HRT rapid transit station (and across from the famed West Side Market).
As for commercial districts... It's closer than you may think. Yes, Pittsburgh gets the edge, but not by much, and the gap is shrinking given the rebirth of several dilapidated, semi-abandoned districts. One good example is Lorain Ave in Ohio City -- no, not the red hot area around W. 25, but the quieter district west of St. Ignatius High School and W. 32 - an area pock-marked with used car lots and old run-down half/totally empty mixed us pre-1900s buildings. Now they are being gobbled up and converted to commercial space -- many pubs, restaurants and micro-brews; and new infill, muliti-unit apts, and townhomes are popping up all over ... so all this is stretching the intact, super popular Ohio City districts.
I won't inventory all areas (just to say Pittsburgh has nothing comparable to the Flats; sorry, Station Square ain't it), but will not downtown Oakland is a tad more robust than Cleveland's University Circle... As least it was a few years ago, but not so much, now. UC's uptown district next to thriving Little Italy which is a few blocks away from gorgeous new high rise apts -- 20 One University Circle went up a few years ago; 1-block north 24-story ($300M) Circle Square (which is spawning a cluster of attractive not-quite-as-tall residences will be rising early next year).
... and I will add, to me and a lot of people, University Circle with its mixed parklike-lagoon natural areas interwoven into the urban fabric (including many Victorian-era mansions), is far more physically attractive than Oakland, and it's not even close.
...and, oh-btw, Univ. Circle has far better public trans with both the Red Line rapid transit and the 24/7 Healthline BRT.
So while Pittsburgh absolutely has the urban cult popularity way over Cleveland esp here on C-D, sometimes perception isn't always reality.
Definitely Pittsburgh. Here in the Bay Area lots of people know Pittsburgh because of CMU/tech stuff. Also, there is a big Steeler's fanbase out here. I haven't heard (or thought) about Cleveland in quite some time.
So while Pittsburgh absolutely has the urban cult popularity way over Cleveland esp here on C-D, sometimes perception isn't always reality.
Thanks for the very through reply. I can't do justice to your full post. These are two great American cities and I do like Cleveland. But, I guess I still have a hard time seeing it on Pittsbugh's level from an urban perspective.
Maybe it is the topography or the universities, but Pittsburgh just has a more cohesive, vibrant urban core. The hip, urban walkable neighborhoods all run into each other. I just don't get the same urban feel from Cleveland. It feels a lot more disjointed. You have UCity and Little Italy on one side and then like 5-6 miles away you have Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit-Shoreway. Those areas are all great. But, I can't say they feel as developed or vibrant as Pittsburgh's area.
Thanks for the very through reply. I can't do justice to your full post. These are two great American cities and I do like Cleveland. But, I guess I still have a hard time seeing it on Pittsbugh's level from an urban perspective.
Maybe it is the topography or the universities, but Pittsburgh just has a more cohesive, vibrant urban core. The hip, urban walkable neighborhoods all run into each other. I just don't get the same urban feel from Cleveland. It feels a lot more disjointed. You have UCity and Little Italy on one side and then like 5-6 miles away you have Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit-Shoreway. Those areas are all great. But, I can't say they feel as developed or vibrant as Pittsburgh's area.
The second link down is not even in downtown Pittsburgh, yet looks more like a traditional big city downtown than anything I've seen from Dallas, Atlanta, or D.C.
Lol.
Though I am a native Pittsburgher and voted for it in this poll, I feel like Cleveland is getting undersold in this thread and it should be closer.
Things like the Key Tower, RNC, etc. not getting brought up.
Thanks for the very through reply. I can't do justice to your full post. These are two great American cities and I do like Cleveland. But, I guess I still have a hard time seeing it on Pittsbugh's level from an urban perspective.
Maybe it is the topography or the universities, but Pittsburgh just has a more cohesive, vibrant urban core. The hip, urban walkable neighborhoods all run into each other. I just don't get the same urban feel from Cleveland. It feels a lot more disjointed. You have UCity and Little Italy on one side and then like 5-6 miles away you have Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit-Shoreway. Those areas are all great. But, I can't say they feel as developed or vibrant as Pittsburgh's area.
[/url]
Points well taken, but let me respond to a few things. You noted the 'disjointed' feel of Cleveland's quality urban districts. That is a common refrain but one, really from folks who really don't know Cleveland - (note: in no way am I attempting to belittle you, because you do seem to know the City... but many who say this, don't). In particular, you noted the 6 mile distance from Tremont, Ohio City and Detroit-Shoreway ... to University Circle/Little Italy.
OK, let's break down what you are saying. First, you just named 3 contiguous West Side neighborhoods - OC, D-S and Tremont... Take the names away and look at it as, more and more, just one substantial neighborhood, and that group, in itself, is a substantial chunk -- almost the entirety -- of close-in, West Side areas, and they are growing together more and more and strengthening Cleveland's urban connective tissue... Again, consider my recitation about rehab and growth heading west out Lorain. The same is happening on the north side of OC and D-S near/along the Lake (for a portion). Between the 2 neighborhoods, is a sort of made-up neighborhood that's really emerged in the last 10-20 years: "Hingetown", ... why that name? ... because it hinges Ohio City and Detroit Shoreway in ways I'm talking about. This area was unrecognizable a few years ago. Consider the below Streetview (and when you do, look at the below 2021 version, then go back to 2007 or 2009).
Mind you, this is only 1-small, newishly designated area: Hingetown... But, really, adjacent/immediately to the west of Det-Shoreway, you could throw in a rapidly up & coming
Cudell neighborhood which, itslf, is adjacent to upscale and urban, lakeshore Edgewater (including the beach).
Then let's look at the 2nd part of your statement re: Little-Italy/University Circle. Your comment presumes this co-neighbhood is an island on the East Side... It is not. For one thing, you have Larchmere/Shaker Square just up the hill, but you also have The Heights.
In recent decades, nearby neighborhoods have been banding together to designate on large neighborhood encompassing UC, Little Italy, Shaker Square and others; it's called "Circle-Heights"... OK, call it cheating, but it includes the attractive, aforementioned City neighborhoods along with western chunks of suburban Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights, the former including such areas as Coventry, and where you'll find old apartment districts like this:
The second link down is not even in downtown Pittsburgh, yet looks more like a traditional big city downtown than anything I've seen from Dallas, Atlanta, or D.C.
.
Its interesting that Oakland in Pittsburgh has become a lot more like a few areas of DC in built form - namely Connecticut Ave, and the more dense parts of Wisconsin Ave in DC. Lots of 8-14 story buildings in a street wall, interspersed with cultural places.
I'm actually surprised the poll on here is as close as what it is (which isn't close) because this site has a love fest for Pittsburgh.
Realistically, it's even at best (where I personally would put it) or Cleveland slightly ahead (it ranks higher in pretty much all the world tier city rankings). Say what you want about those rankings, but its not me making those lists.
I'm actually surprised the poll on here is as close as what it is (which isn't close) because this site has a love fest for Pittsburgh.
Realistically, it's even at best (where I personally would put it) or Cleveland slightly ahead (it ranks higher in pretty much all the world tier city rankings). Say what you want about those rankings, but its not me making those lists.
I think the advantage Pittsburgh has is it’s the steel city. While Cleveland had a more varied industrial base (including things like ship building) so Pittsburgh had a brand.
Plus the City of Pittsburgh held up better than the City of Cleveland. Even if that’s not necessarily true of the entire metro. But people judge a city based on about 3-4 sq miles
What sort of qualities/achivements make a city "renowned" around the world?
I think the 2 cities are very close in most things...
Mfg: Pittsburgh has steel...Cleveland had steel but also oil refining, and auto manufacturing...no one indsutry became dominant in Cleveland. I guess you can say both cities do well w/ Paint as Pittsburgh has PPG and Cleveland has Sherwin Williams
Sports: Pittsburgh and it's not close...multiple Super Bowls and multiple Stanley Cups. Cleveland had a big lead in the Pre-Super Bowl era but since the beginning of that time, the Clowns have not made it once to the SP while the Steelers have won 6 and been to 8. Penguins have at least 4 Stanley Cups that I know of...2 back w/ Mario Lemoiux (sp?) and 2 recently w/ Sid the kid. Cleveland has a whole 1 NBA Championship....and you have to go back to 1954 for the Indians and a WS Title (Pirates have none as far as I know...at least none in my lifetime)
Arts: Cleveland and not close...w/ the World Renowned Cleveland Orchestra, The Cleveland Museum of Art (one of the best Art Museums in the country), The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, and the plethora of musicians that came from here, Cleveland far and away bests Pittsburgh here.
Current Economy: Pittsburgh wins but it's not by a lot...Pittsburgh has a bigger Tech and Finance industry...Cleveland has Pittsburgh beat in the medical industry though.
So again, what makes a place more renowned than another place? Neither city is portrayed that much by Hollywood but both cities do have films shot in their respective cities.
TBH, Cleveland probably compares more to Milwaukee and Detroit while Pittsburgh compares more to Cincinnati and St Louis imo...as they are all major River cities situated in River Valleys.
I think the advantage Pittsburgh has is it’s the steel city. While Cleveland had a more varied industrial base (including things like ship building) so Pittsburgh had a brand.
Plus the City of Pittsburgh held up better than the City of Cleveland. Even if that’s not necessarily true of the entire metro. But people judge a city based on about 3-4 sq miles
The last statement is definitely true. Visitors' views are often distorted in this way.
But so is the 'cult following' observation. It is interesting how drilled in certain viewpoints are about cities, even if they are not true, ie: Cleveland's neighborhoods are few, rather sparse and spread out, like islands. And yet when this fact is true of a place people like, such as Pittsburgh, it is glossed over and ignored. The Strip District is a perfect example of this - an above poster posted a YouTube video of it. The Strip is a cool old bustling area of markets, restaurants and, per its name, lots of discount, off-brand retail. There's not a ton of residential population from what I have seen aside from a small hotel or 2. Clearly, though the Strip is one of Pittsburgh's coolest areas, no doubt.
But the Strip District is a total island, isolated from almost everything. There's a steep hillside and RR tracks traversing its long-slim length. On the opposite side, there are old warehouses and the Allegheny River. Although its near downtown, it is really cut off by a no man's land of squat commercial buildings, surface parking 'lake's' and the massive I-579 elevated doube bridge and its shadows. There has been loose talk of restoring the T LRT Penn Station branch and extending it 1 stop to the Strip District, that would be a positive step.
But the Strip District isn't Pittsburgh's only isolated 'island' quality mixed use hot district. What about Southside, Mount Washington, Squirrel Hill and even Oakland, to a large degree. At least Cleveland is relatively flat but in Pittsburgh you have to usually encounter steep hills when going from neighborhood to neighbood... and the rail transit connection to these areas are not as good as Clevelnd's to, or at least near, most of its comparable areas.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
