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It seems like many people associate southern culture only with rural areas. However, I think its important to highlight characteristics of southern cities. Southern cities tend to be less densely populated with neighborhoods with larger yards. Just because Atlanta is a large city with many transplants from other regions does not mean it is not a southern city. Atlanta still has a strong population of people from Georgia who reflect culture developed in the deep south. These cultural elements include accents, cuisine, and geographic familiarity. I used Atlanta as an example because it is the most prominent city in the south as well as the most centrally located city in the region. I would argue that the culture found in east Texas is a version of southern culture. If you do not consider Texas southern and prefer to consider it solely an example of southwestern culture than Richmond would be the natural choice for most southern periphery. However if you consider East Texas to share characteristics similar to deep southern states like Louisiana and Mississippi than Austin would be more southern in its periphery.
Austin isn't in east Texas though.... It's an entire state over if Texas was a normal sized state.
Richmond is less than 45 minutes from Southside Virginia, which is arguably just as southern as the Deep South, especially if you look at its history. Once you get past Richmond on I-95 or I-85 and head down near the North Carolina border, it gets really southern very fast.
Austin is still a few hours away from the Deep South, assuming we’re all in agreement that east Texas is the only region in the state that can be categorized as “Deep South.” I’ve only visited Austin once, briefly and nearly 10 years ago. But it didn’t strike me as being very southern at all.
Well ALL of the south is southern, no? Whether it's Deep South or Upper South, it's the South. The cultural elements of the south are definitely stronger in Southside VA. But I would hesitate to call that area the Deep South because for a variety of reasons, it just isn't, geography aside. I'll grant you that parts of Southside VA as well as East Texas are in the "Black Belt," but it doesn't include Richmond or Austin.
From south of Petersburg, where I-85 cuts through Southside VA, you're in a virtual wilderness until you reach the Durham area. On the flip side, Richmond (city), also sits just an hour away from Quantico and arguably shares a stronger connection with the neighboring metro to the north. There's always the question of whether RVA as a city and metro is more oriented to the north or not, but to the point of the main question - if we're talking about rural periphery, then yes, I would agree that places like Hanover, Powhatan, Dinwiddie, etc. in Virginia are more classically southern in demos and character than the traditionally "Texan" rural periphery of Austin.
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Originally Posted by whereiend
At the end of the day, I just don't think the actual city of Austin is notably southern at all. Even in the outskirts of the metro, a place like Georgetown, Lakeway, San Marcos, etc.. It gets Texan for sure but is it really all that "southern"? I don't really see it. Maybe a little in the eastern or northern outskirts of the city I suppose?
If Richmond is equally un-southern, than it's just kind of a pointless comparison. Why not do "more southern: NYC or Boston" next?
Maybe the question is really whether Austin is more Southwestern than Richmond is Mid-Atlantic? If being Southwestern means you cannot be southern, then I would say yes because the Southwest is a major part of Austin's bedrock identity, while Richmond actually considers itself a southern city within the Mid-Atlantic region. But, I personally don't consider either of those regions exclusive of the South.
Maybe the question is really whether Austin is more Southwestern than Richmond is Mid-Atlantic? If being Southwestern means you cannot be southern, then I would say yes because the Southwest is a major part of Austin's bedrock identity, while Richmond actually considers itself a southern city within the Mid-Atlantic region. But, I personally don't consider either of those regions exclusive of the South.
It's not even that Austin is "southwestern", more that it's a city that is full of transplants from other places and has minimal detectable "southern" culture as a result. For a Virginia analog look at DC's Northern Virginia suburbs, recognizing that Austin has grown substantially faster than Northern Virginia has during the same period.
That said, even historically much of the Central Texas area was settled by German immigrants rather than Anglo southerners, so the region as a whole has always been somewhat culturally and politically independent from the rest of the state for that reason (the classic example being voting against secession). Certainly Austin before 1970 would have been much more southern than today, however.
Do people in Austin actually consider themselves southerners?
Comparing it to Richmond where the southern history and connection runs deep is strange. Even if people don't like it, no one can deny Richmond is a southern city (barring those with an agenda themselves). The argument is always does the Richmond of today have more in common with areas to it's north or south, not whether its a southern city or not.
Austin seems like it was never considered a southern city at all by it's inhabitants.
It might be better to compare Austin with a true periphery city like Baltimore or Louisville or something.
Austin (and actually Dallas-Fort Worth somewhat too) to me feel more west, than they do southern. Wouldn't say the same thing about Houston. I'm sure Richmond has some northeast influences but it definitely sounds like overall, it is more southern in feel, etc.
It seems like many people associate southern culture only with rural areas. However, I think its important to highlight characteristics of southern cities. Southern cities tend to be less densely populated with neighborhoods with larger yards. Just because Atlanta is a large city with many transplants from other regions does not mean it is not a southern city. Atlanta still has a strong population of people from Georgia who reflect culture developed in the deep south. These cultural elements include accents, cuisine, and geographic familiarity. I used Atlanta as an example because it is the most prominent city in the south as well as the most centrally located city in the region. I would argue that the culture found in east Texas is a version of southern culture. If you do not consider Texas southern and prefer to consider it solely an example of southwestern culture than Richmond would be the natural choice for most southern periphery. However if you consider East Texas to share characteristics similar to deep southern states like Louisiana and Mississippi than Austin would be more southern in its periphery.
Honestly from my personal experiences most Austinites or people living in Austin have little to no connection with East Texas. To a lot of Austinites, East Texas might as well be in Mississippi. You gotta remember a lot of Austinites even have a condescending attitude about cosmopolitan cities like Dallas and Houston let alone a region like East Texas.
I'll give you a perfect example.
Check out this video from Will Edmond a guy from East Texas. He mentions to the Austinite that he's from East Texas and when he brings up the town she literally has no idea of what town he's talking about. It's a town near Texarkana.
Which his hometown is a 6 hour drive from Austin. Just not enough interaction between both regions to attach it to each other. Even down to the BBQ. It's completely different.
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Originally Posted by whereiend
Austin isn't in east Texas though.... It's an entire state over if Texas was a normal sized state.
Exactly! My birthplace of Marshall,TX is closer to Vicksburg Mississippi than it is to Austin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rural & red
Do people in Austin actually consider themselves southerners?
Comparing it to Richmond where the southern history and connection runs deep is strange. Even if people don't like it, no one can deny Richmond is a southern city (barring those with an agenda themselves). The argument is always does the Richmond of today have more in common with areas to it's north or south, not whether its a southern city or not.
Austin seems like it was never considered a southern city at all by it's inhabitants.
It might be better to compare Austin with a true periphery city like Baltimore or Louisville or something.
Austin definitely has a southern history. I can recall looking at old footage of Austin from the 70's with people wearing shirts with confederate flags on them and of course Austin's heavy racist past and political structure. Austin was in close proximity to a lot of Freedmen towns in between Austin and Houston. Austin became a destination for those newly freedmen in it's formative years. Austin even has one of the oldest HBCU's in the state. Not only that but UT Austin has a very problematic racist past that feels no different than what you would find in most southern cities during that time period.
Difference is Austin made a complete transformation I'd say somewhere in the late 80's to early 90's and it's southern roots slowly started to fade over time. Not suggesting that it had a strong southern culture to begin with. Again there were White Southerners that established parts of Austin and central Texas but it was a little different too with the wave of German immigrants that had no ties to the southern antebellum. Which is probably another reason Austin in particular feels void of any southern culture.
Than again you said Houston didn't feel southern to you at all. I beg to differ. It's a major cosmopolitan city so of course it wouldn't feel as southern as a rural or smaller southern town with less transplants but it's roots are there. Especially in counties like Fort Bend and Brazos.
Do people in Austin actually consider themselves southerners?
Comparing it to Richmond where the southern history and connection runs deep is strange. Even if people don't like it, no one can deny Richmond is a southern city (barring those with an agenda themselves). The argument is always does the Richmond of today have more in common with areas to it's north or south, not whether its a southern city or not.
Austin seems like it was never considered a southern city at all by it's inhabitants.
It might be better to compare Austin with a true periphery city like Baltimore or Louisville or something.
Virginia has the Old South location and history, but it also has a lot of Mid-Atlantic overtones that make it a far cry from places in Louisiana or Mississippi, where I feel a Texan might be more at home.
New Orleanians don't typically consider themselves southerners either, at least not in the conventional way. The south is a big and complex region.
Only recently has Austin started to distance itself from its Southern roots.
I’m in my early 50’s. My first ideas about Austin were formed by the music produced there. The whole Texas singer /songwriter sound is dripping in Southern accents and themes. I haven’t been to Austin in about ten years but when I was there last it seemed pretty much like every other large southern metro (built form, fashion, housing styles, accents). I personally think Richmond has been transitioning for a longer time but that Austin is doing it much faster and more decidedly (sky-rocking growth will do that).
Neither area is stereotypically Southern. But what metro over 500K is these days? And what does Southern culture even mean in 2022?
And with regards to Austin not really being Texas, a majority of those transplants moving to Austin are still coming from within Texas.
I think this is a really important question. Just because a place is becoming more urban and attracting more transplants does not mean it cannot still be southern. Obviously every large city in America are going to share similarities but there are still regional differences based on demographics, city planning, and cuisine. I think its important to highlight the subtle differences between regions to determine the characteristics that define the South in 2022. For example traditional southern cities still typically have more multigeneration American born residents than Northern cities. Neighborhoods in the South are more spread out and public transportation is usually less convenient. Southern cuisine includes a lot of dishes that were developed in America based on a mix of European, African and Native American cooking techniques.
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