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Uh, did you read mine which your post was replying to?
It's pretty clear what I'm saying and *that* was the first post in the exchange. You were replying in response to ^. Saying that also doesn't mean that people in the city frequently or always go to restaurants in the suburbs. Then again, Michelin starred restaurants, which is the topic at hand, aren't generally the usual after work restaurants for the vast majority of people even including the majority of people dining at those restaurants.
What you're saying about people in NYC rarely leaving the city unless they absolutely have to being wrong. What you said about the Hamptons not being a NYC suburb is wrong. Not quite wrong, but certainly something that's far less common now, is the idea that people living in Manhattan as a whole never go to the outer boroughs. These aren't the main point I was talking about, and remember, you responded to *my* post initially which started this back and forth, but I noted that they were inaccurate. I think the Michelin Guide should cover all or at least most of the NYC metropolitan area as they did for the San Francisco Bay Area. Is there anything with that you find disagreeable?
I think age plays a huge role in people going to the suburbs that live in NYC in my experience. I guess I should have said people in their 20's and 30's because that is the age my social circle is in.
As for the Michelin Guide in DC, just an FYI, Michelin planned to expand the DC guide to the entire DC metro area for years. They just haven't done it yet. They are also trying to include additional cuisines finally. Adding a Caribbean restaurant or anything from the African diaspora is WAYYYY overdue.
Announcing new additions throughout the year marks a sharp turn from the red book’s former annual reveal. It’s an attempt at making the guide more relevant. Another step towards relevancy is including cuisines that aren’t European, as seen in this line-up.
“By revealing some of the new additions made by our inspectors throughout the year, we enhance our digital tools to further strengthen the ties that bind us to food lovers,” Gwendal Poullennec, international director of the Michelin Guides, said in a November press release. “As the restaurant industry continues to face unprecedented challenges and uncertainties, we hope that these regular revelations and updates to the selection throughout the year will provide opportunities to highlight the profession and invite everyone to discover and support the restaurants around them.”
In April, Michelin Guide released its first updated group of restaurant recommendations in D.C. since before the COVID-19 pandemic. Five D.C. restaurants got their first stars, joining the elite crop of restaurants the French tire company deems worthy of a visit, and six newcomers were added to its local Bib Gourmand list.
I think age plays a huge role in people going to the suburbs that live in NYC in my experience. I guess I should have said people in their 20's and 30's because that is the age my social circle is in.
As for the Michelin Guide in DC, just an FYI, Michelin planned to expand the DC guide to the entire DC metro area for years. They just haven't done it yet. They are also trying to include additional cuisines finally. Adding a Caribbean restaurant or anything from the African diaspora is WAYYYY overdue.
Announcing new additions throughout the year marks a sharp turn from the red book’s former annual reveal. It’s an attempt at making the guide more relevant. Another step towards relevancy is including cuisines that aren’t European, as seen in this line-up.
“By revealing some of the new additions made by our inspectors throughout the year, we enhance our digital tools to further strengthen the ties that bind us to food lovers,” Gwendal Poullennec, international director of the Michelin Guides, said in a November press release. “As the restaurant industry continues to face unprecedented challenges and uncertainties, we hope that these regular revelations and updates to the selection throughout the year will provide opportunities to highlight the profession and invite everyone to discover and support the restaurants around them.”
In April, Michelin Guide released its first updated group of restaurant recommendations in D.C. since before the COVID-19 pandemic. Five D.C. restaurants got their first stars, joining the elite crop of restaurants the French tire company deems worthy of a visit, and six newcomers were added to its local Bib Gourmand list.
My social circle is mostly in the 20s to 40s. I live in New York City and have for over a decade, but have no idea what people in DC do. I don't think you've clearly stated when you last lived in NYC and for how long.
I also stated that NYC is very large and can have a lot of different social circles. Making the blanket statement of people not leaving the city can be true for some part of the group, especially those without the time and means to leave very often, but with a city as populous as NYC, there are always going to be a lot of people that can and do. Hamptons, Catskills, Hudson Valley, Poconos, Jersey Shore--these places themselves have spots with very large and affluent populations, sometimes quite diverse, that can support some pretty fine dining. Some parts of these places also have a very strong local tourism bent to them. There is a very large variety of high end restaurants in the NYC suburbs.
I think the Michelin Guide should cover all or at least most of the NYC metropolitan area as they did for the San Francisco Bay Area. What about that do you find disagreeable?
My social circle is mostly in the 20s to 40s. I live in New York City and have for over a decade, but have no idea what people in DC do. I don't think you've clearly stated when you last lived in NYC and for how long.
I also stated that NYC is very large and can have a lot of different social circles. Making the blanket statement of people not leaving the city can be true for some part of the group, especially those without the time and means to leave very often, but with a city as populous as NYC, there are always going to be a lot of people that can and do.
I think the Michelin Guide should cover all or at least most of the NYC metropolitan area as they did for the San Francisco Bay Area. Is there anything with that you find disagreeable?
I was in NYC for Halloween last year. I have tons of friends that live in NYC. The professional Black population between DC and NYC is pretty interchangeable meaning we go back and forth often. They come down here to hangout and party and we go up there to hangout and party. NYC can't do brunch like DC though lol....
I don't work in NYC ever, but I have friends that live in DC and work out of their NYC office sometimes. One of them is leaving today to go up there actually.
There are really only 3 cities that even offer a professional Black scene at a high level and that is DC, NYC, and Atlanta from my experience. The professional Black scene in NYC is mainly in Harlem and Brooklyn so that's where I spend my time when I'm there.
I too agree all these Michelin Guides should cover their regions. I only brought up the suburbs to point out who would most likely be eating at suburban restaurants most often.
I was in NYC for Halloween last year. I have tons of friends that live in NYC. The professional Black population between DC and NYC is pretty interchangeable meaning we go back and forth often. They come down here to hangout and party and we go up there to hangout and party. NYC can't do brunch like DC though lol....
I don't work in NYC ever, but I have friends that live in DC and work out of their NYC office sometimes. One of them is leaving today to go up there actually.
There are really only 3 cities that even offer a professional Black scene at a high level and that is DC, NYC, and Atlanta from my experience. The professional Black scene in NYC is mainly in Harlem and Brooklyn so that's where I spend my time when I'm there.
I too agree all these Michelin Guides should cover their regions. I only brought up the suburbs to point out who would most likely be eating at suburban restaurants most often.
Is that your way of saying you've never lived in NYC? I'm not sure that was very clearly communicated. I was in NYC last Halloween as well--and I've been here for a lot of Halloweens and have been mostly in NYC since that last Halloween since I live here.
It is certainly possible that there are different patterns for different demographics. I am not a black professional and having black friends doesn't mean I can speak to what black professionals generally do. Now that you mention it, for whatever reason, some of these spots I've gone out to don't seem to have sizable black professional components to them and I wonder what the historic context is to that and that is pretty interesting to me. Though if I had to guess, and this is a real wild one, it may have something to do if not contemporarily, then at least historically, with racism. I recognize that NYC is very, very populous and very, very diverse and there are people that can have very different experiences of the same city. I've stated as such, and I think a blanket statement about people in NYC "unless they absolutely have to" not going out to the Hamptons, Catskills, Hudson Valley, Poconos, Jersey Shore, etc. isn't going to be very accurate characterization for such a diverse and large population.
Remember, I pointed to the Bay Area Michelin Guide as an example of there being coverage of a metropolitan area that includes suburbs including some very suburban places. That's what I'm comparing to. It doesn't mean that it's about people living in the city leaving work for a 7 pm dinner an hour and a half away in the suburbs for dinner at any great frequency. That's certainly not how that works in the Bay Area either. I am saying that since it exists for the Bay Area, then it'd be great if it existed for NYC. That goes especially for me, because we pretty frequently leave the city proper.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-24-2022 at 03:29 PM..
Is that your way of saying you've never lived in NYC? I'm not sure that was very clearly communicated. It is certainly possible that there are differences in patterns for different demographics. I am not a black professional and having black friends doesn't mean I actually know what the habits are. Now that you mention it, for whatever reason, some of these spots I've gone out to doesn't seem to have a particularly large black professional component to them and I wonder what the historic context is to that. I recognize that NYC is very, very populous and very, very diverse and there are people that can have very different experiences of the same city. I've stated as such, and I think a blanket statement about people in NYC unless they absolutely have to not going out to the Hamptons, Catskills, Hudson Valley, Poconos, Jersey Shore, etc. isn't going to be very accurate for such a diverse and large population.
Remember, I pointed to the Bay Area Michelin Guide as an example of there being coverage of a metropolitan area that includes suburbs including some very suburban places. That's what I'm comparing to. It doesn't mean that it's about people leaving work for a 7 pm dinner an hour and a half away in the suburbs for dinner at any great frequency. That's certainly not how that works in the Bay Area either. I am saying that since it exists for the Bay Area, then it'd be great if it existed for NYC. That goes especially for me, because we pretty frequently leave the city proper.
I agree 100%! My experience is coming completely from an African American perspective, and I also have no idea what the experience is like for a White, Asian, or Hispanic person living in NYC or DC. The spaces I frequent socially, like many Americans, are almost completely filled with people from my own race. Even when I'm eating at restaurants, my party is almost exclusively African American even if we are the only African Americans in the entire restaurant.
The problem with any opinion about anything is it will usually be drawn based on our life experiences. Because race plays such a huge role in life across the world, and historically African Americans have lived amongst their own, all of our experiences will be completely different regardless of where we come from.
We agree about the regional Michelin Guide. Michelin clearly agrees too since The Bay no longer has a guide, California has a guide and Florida is about to have a guide.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 02-24-2022 at 03:37 PM..
MDAllstar: Should your travels ever take you to Philadelphia, drop me a line via PM and I'll take you to a meal at Relish in West Oak Lane. It's run by these two brothers by the last name of Bynum who have opened (and closed) a series of fine restaurants, many of them including live music performance spaces, in this city. The Bynuan m brothers are Black, but Relish is the first and to date only restaurant they've owned or co-owned that's located in a predominantly Black neighborhood. They've had two in Center City and two others in Chestnut Hill, one of the city's wealthiest (and most suburban in appearance) neighborhoods. They currently have one in South Philadelphia (on the Delaware riverfront, however, which is a "no man's land" etnnically speaking; it's a chunk of auto-oriented suburbia right next to a dense residential neighborhood), one in Spring Garden (originally white, then Hispanic immigrant, now largely white again) in lower North Philly, and this restaurant in West Oak Lane, the more workaday of the two Oak Lanes. (East Oak Lane, the older of the two, is one of Philly's best-kept secrets: an affluent, mostly Black neighborhood. I just interviewed a white Realtor whose hubby is a Black actor at an open house in the neighborhood; they moved back [for her] there from New York. She has long ties to the neighborhood and loves it to death. I'll quote her in my neighborhood guide to the Oak Lanes in the April issue of Philadelphia.)
Relish has a killer Sunday brunch (with live jazz), and it's become an Election Night hangout for Northwest Philly pols. (Edited to add: The Bynums are regarded as two of the city's best restaurateurs.)
But I've gone on too long about that. I wanted to put two cents in on the argument over what constituted a "suburb." People can and do commute from more remote parts of a metropolitan area to the core city, but because they do so doesn't make the place a "suburb" as the term is commonly understood. Nor does a county's presence in an MSA make it an actual "suburb" of the core city: Pike County, PA, in the Poconos, is in the New York MSA, but trust me, nothing about Pike County looks or feels "suburban." More likely — as with Trenton, whose MSA was moved from the Philadelphia CSA into the New York one in the 1990s — residents there commute to jobs in one of the other outlying counties in the MSA (or CSA), which qualifies the county for inclusion.
I've been to the Hamptons once, and my impression of the place is that (like Fire Island) it's more resort/retereat than suburb. It's not terribly densely developed, and there's not the sort of cluster of shops and businesses around a train station that characterizes most Northeastern railroad suburbs. Eastern Suffolk County is quite different in look and feel from the part of the county where the Moses parkways run. Those latter parts are definitely suburbs.
I do think you two did ultimately agree, though, that most of the people dining at suburban restaurants are themselves suburbanites. I know that's why several popular Philadelphia restaurants have opened suburban locations, and it's also why both city and suburban restaurateurs have opened other restaurants in other suburbs.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 02-24-2022 at 07:58 PM..
MDAllstar: Should your travels ever take you to Philadelphia, drop me a line via PM and I'll take you to a meal at Relish in West Oak Lane. It's run by these two brothers by the last name of Bynum who have opened (and closed) a series of fine restaurants, many of them including live music performance spaces, in this city. The Bynuan m brothers are Black, but Relish is the first and to date only restaurant they've owned or co-owned that's located in a predominantly Black neighborhood. They've had two in Center City and two others in Chestnut Hill, one of the city's wealthiest (and most suburban in appearance) neighborhoods. They currently have one in South Philadelphia (on the Delaware riverfront, however, which is a "no man's land" etnnically speaking; it's a chunk of auto-oriented suburbia right next to a dense residential neighborhood), one in Spring Garden (originally white, then Hispanic immigrant, now largely white again) in lower North Philly, and this restaurant in West Oak Lane, the more workaday of the two Oak Lanes. (East Oak Lane, the older of the two, is one of Philly's best-kept secrets: an affluent, mostly Black neighborhood. I just interviewed a white Realtor whose hubby is a Black actor at an open house in the neighborhood; they moved back [for her] there from New York. She has long ties to the neighborhood and loves it to death. I'll quote her in my neighborhood guide to the Oak Lanes in the April issue of Philadelphia.)
Relish has a killer Sunday brunch (with live jazz), and it's become an Election Night hangout for Northwest Philly pols. (Edited to add: The Bynums are regarded as two of the city's best restaurateurs.)
But I've gone on too long about that. I wanted to put two cents in on the argument over what constituted a "suburb." People can and do commute from more remote parts of a metropolitan area to the core city, but because they do so doesn't make the place a "suburb" as the term is commonly understood. Nor does a county's presence in an MSA make it an actual "suburb" of the core city: Pike County, PA, in the Poconos, is in the New York MSA, but trust me, nothing about Pike County looks or feels "suburban." More likely — as with Trenton, whose MSA was moved from the Philadelphia CSA into the New York one in the 1990s — residents there commute to jobs in one of the other outlying counties in the MSA (or CSA), which qualifies the county for inclusion.
I've been to the Hamptons once, and my impression of the place is that (like Fire Island) it's more resort/retereat than suburb. It's not terribly densely developed, and there's not the sort of cluster of shops and businesses around a train station that characterizes most Northeastern railroad suburbs. Eastern Suffolk County is quite different in look and feel from the part of the county where the Moses parkways run. Those latter parts are definitely suburbs.
I do think you two did ultimately agree, though, that most of the people dining at suburban restaurants are themselves suburbanites. I know that's why several popular Philadelphia restaurants have opened suburban locations, and it's also why both city and suburban restaurateurs have opened other restaurants in other suburbs.
One of my best friends lives in Philadelphia. He is a principal for the Philadelphia school system. I don't make it to Philly as often as I should anymore to see him. I used to go regularly for work, but I'm not with that company anymore. Relish sounds dope though! I may take you up on that offer as long as you're not a serial killer lol...jk. If you have not already, you should add that neighborhood and restaurant to the African American Diaspora: City vs. City Neighborhoods thread on the General U.S. forum.
As the Michelin Guides for 2022 will be releasing new stars for restaurants in cities across the U.S. soon, here is the current number of restaurants within city proper that currently have Michelin stars in the U.S.:
1. NYC = 65 restaurants with stars
2. San Francisco = 31 restaurants with stars
3. DC = 22 restaurants with stars
4. Chicago = 20 restaurants with stars
5. Los Angeles = 10 restaurants with stars
Which cities do you think will add the most new restaurants to their guide this year? Chicago has lost a few stars recently. There are four new stars rumored for DC that would bring the DC total up to 26 restaurants. San Fran is currently at 31 restaurants with stars. How many could San Fran add? NYC has more than double every other city.
I did a per capita ranking for the James Beard Award thread so it might be interesting to look at these cities on a per capita basis for Michelin Star density by city proper:
Michelin Star Per Capita Density by City Proper Land Area
1. San Francisco (31 restaurants with stars) Density By Total City Proper Land (46.9 sq. miles) = 0.66
2. DC (22 restaurants with stars) Density By Total City Proper Land (61.4 sq. miles) = 0.36
3. NYC (65 restaurants with stars) Density By Total City Proper Land (300.46 sq. miles) = 0.22
4. Chicago(20 restaurants with stars) Density By Total City Proper Land (227.73 sq. miles) = 0.09
5. Los Angeles (10 restaurants with stars) Density By Total City Proper Land (469.49 sq. miles) = 0.02
People saying Michelin is "Western"-biased - Tokyo has by far the most Michelin-starred restaurants in the world, with 212. That's 3 times as many as NYC. Both Kyoto (103) and Osaka (97) have more than NYC as well. That does not sound like Western bias to me.
I'm not defending Michelin necessarily - I think it's flawed. No way does DC deserve 22, for example. Vegas absolutely annihilates DC for fine dining. I also dislike the focus on "fine dining" and how that is defined. Cities like New Orleans, Houston, Portland, Philly, and Seattle have plenty of great restaurants that are dressy casual so wouldn't qualify even if Michelin did deem them worthy for a visit.
People saying Michelin is "Western"-biased - Tokyo has by far the most Michelin-starred restaurants in the world, with 212. That's 3 times as many as NYC. Both Kyoto (103) and Osaka (97) have more than NYC as well. That does not sound like Western bias to me.
I'm not defending Michelin necessarily - I think it's flawed. No way does DC deserve 22, for example. Vegas absolutely annihilates DC for fine dining. I also dislike the focus on "fine dining" and how that is defined. Cities like New Orleans, Houston, Portland, Philly, and Seattle have plenty of great restaurants that are dressy casual so wouldn't qualify even if Michelin did deem them worthy for a visit.
Have you eaten at any of the Michelin starred restaurants in DC? If you have not, how do you know they shouldn’t qualify? Also, if you’re questioning DC’s Michelin starred restaurants, then you will have to question every single Michelin starred restaurant in the world.
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