Why did North Carolina surpass Virginia in regards to growth and development? (population, highest)

[costellopresley82]

Originally Posted by Heel82

But also, looking at the record, I don't think NC changed much. At least relative to the times. We were the 10th largest state in population in 1850. We dropped in the aftermath of the war (but never worse than 16th) and were back at 10th in 1950. We are now 9th. We've certainly adjusted with textiles and banking and research, but demographically we've stayed even-keeled.

Virginia was the 4th biggest state in population in 1850. They dropped as low as 20th for a generation or so, before getting back to 15th in 1950. They are now 12th. I'm assuming most of their wealth was tied into large plantations which obviously went away after the war. But what happened then? Did people just move for jobs? I assume industry never took hold like NC got with textiles. There have been some good multifaceted responses here, and I'm really enjoying the information sharing.

That’s what I don’t fully understand either, and I find it interesting, as well. I do have some guesses, though. Virginia seemed to go through a period of decline sometime in the 1800s, despite the state being important for the Confederacy. I know the state relied on selling slaves to the Deep South because a lot of the farmland was worn out. At the same time, Virginia was a fairly aristocratic state throughout history, and maybe the privileged left everyone else in the dust. You had the First Families of Virginia and later the Byrd Machine running the state and keeping it conservative, therefore holding back the state to an extent. Virginia was quite resistant to the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950s, too. I can’t imagine that helped the state.

North Carolina, on the other hand, didn’t exactly have an aristocratic past. It was quite poor and rural across the board, and it didn’t have an elite group of people running things like in Virginia. Therefore, North Carolina might have embraced change in a stronger manner. It also helped that much of North Carolina didn’t see a lot of destruction during the Civil War, especially in the Piedmont, which became industrialized. Finally, during the Civil Rights Movement, North Carolina embraced a pro-business image rather than hardcore resistance. This clearly helped the state’s image, although it tried to get around integration in a sneakier way.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by costellopresley82

That’s what I don’t fully understand either, and I find it interesting, as well. I do have some guesses, though. Virginia seemed to go through a period of decline sometime in the 1800s, despite the state being important for the Confederacy. I know the state relied on selling slaves to the Deep South because a lot of the farmland was worn out. At the same time, Virginia was a fairly aristocratic state throughout history, and maybe the privileged left everyone else in the dust. You had the First Families of Virginia and later the Byrd Machine running the state and keeping it conservative, therefore holding back the state to an extent. Virginia was quite resistant to the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950s, too. I can’t imagine that helped the state.

North Carolina, on the other hand, didn’t exactly have an aristocratic past. It was quite poor and rural across the board, and it didn’t have an elite group of people running things like in Virginia. Therefore, North Carolina might have embraced change in a stronger manner. It also helped that much of North Carolina didn’t see a lot of destruction during the Civil War, especially in the Piedmont, which became industrialized. Finally, during the Civil Rights Movement, North Carolina embraced a pro-business image rather than hardcore resistance. This clearly helped the state’s image, although it tried to get around integration in a sneakier way.

More recently, the history of post-Civil War Wilmington, then North Carolina's largest city, has come to light.

The city was being run successfully by an interracial coalition of freed slaves and local whites. The plantocracy in the area found this highly offensive and engineered a "riot" that led to the ousting of the elected government and its replacement by an all-white one controlled by said plantocracy.

The North Carolina Highway Department a few years back erected a historical marker about 'The Wilmington Coup," calling the "riot" what it actually was.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by rnc2mbfl

I think that the OP is referring to objective population metrics, not subjective quality metrics.

Things like GDP per capita, median household income, and poverty rate aren't subjective. It's not remotely close. Virginia is the more prosperous place and NoVA around DC is one of the most prosperous places on the planet.


Charlotte is labor cost arbitrage for the financial industry. You park low level and mid level office drones in cubes in Charlotte for 40 cents on the dollar compared to the traditional urban financial centers. However, the Goldman Sachs investment bankers making the huge bucks and doing the huge deals still live and work in NYC. It's like assembling cars in Alabama where the labor is cheap.


My sister got her PhD at the Duke medical school. I've done a bunch of business in RTP over the years. It's an area of intellectual property creation but Northern Virginia is a much bigger version of it.

[spencer114]

To answer Heel regarding the industrialization of VA…

Virginia’s wealth came from manufacturing and trade. Shipbuilding, locomotive building, metal fabrication (Reynold’s Wrap ring a bell?), cigarette production (and the packing that goes with it), munitions production, pharmaceuticals (Chap Stick and Robitussin are Richmond brands), chemical production (Ethanol) and international trade fueled the economies of Tidewater and Richmond. The same textile and furniture production existed in Southside VA too (Danville for textiles (which was home to the world’s largest textile mill at the turn of the 20th century) and Martinsville for furniture). Throw in coal to the west (shipping it out of Newport News helped grow that city but the ever growing mounds of coal still keeps the NN waterfront unattractive, but I digress). The Federal jobs in NoVa have been plentiful for 60 years. Now NoVa is home to more tech companies than anywhere outside of the Bay Area.

In general Virginia’s economy has been strong and diverse for 400 years. But some places blinded by Massive Resistance /the Byrd machine languished for the entirety of the second half of the 20th century. Southside is catching up but it’s towns and cities were left behind by the likes of Durham and Greensboro decades ago. Those places were on par (maybe smaller) than Danville 60 years ago, now those NC cities are several tiers above anyplace south of the James River.

Still Virginia outperforms NC on almost every metric.

[Heel82]

GDP growth has favored NC this century. Charlotte and the Triangle have been outpacing NOVA, and there hasn’t been enough growth in the rest of the state to offset the imbalance.

Circling back to the history for a second though. I appreciate the information. So Virginia was well-diversified, which matches my high school memory of learning how industrialized Virginia was relative to the rest of the South. But going back to the raw population, Virginia suffered a population loss between 1860 and 1870. And not just a small one, but nearly a quarter of the population. Which on one hand, of course, the war. But on the other hand, no other Southern state even lost population that decade. The war seems to have uniquely hit Virginia hard, and it never quite recovered it’s preeminent role it enjoyed previously.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

Charlotte is labor cost arbitrage for the financial industry. You park low level and mid level office drones in cubes in Charlotte for 40 cents on the dollar compared to the traditional urban financial centers. However, the Goldman Sachs investment bankers making the huge bucks and doing the huge deals still live and work in NYC. It's like assembling cars in Alabama where the labor is cheap.

The bulk of the banking jobs in Charlotte are with homegrown major banks that are or were headquartered there and grew through mergers and acquisitions (Truist would have remained headquartered in Winston-Salem if it were interested in keeping its costs as low as possible). FNB and Ally are other banks that have established a presence in Charlotte in recent years and they are headquartered in Pittsburgh and Detroit, respectively, neither of which are traditional coastal high-cost business hubs. Furthermore, major banks like Chase, Citi, and Capital One are all headquartered in more expensive cities but lack a major presence in Charlotte.

Charlotte has a particular banking history which is why it plays a prominent role in the industry.

[paytonc]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

The bulk of the banking jobs in Charlotte are with homegrown major banks that are or were headquartered there and grew through mergers and acquisitions

Correct, e.g., SF's Bank of America was acquired by the North Carolina National Bank. Quick pull off LinkedIn of where the largest non-Charlotte HQ'd banks are hiring, outside NY/NJ:
1. Chase - Dallas, Wilmington DE
3. Wells Fargo - Charlotte, Des Moines
4. Citi - Tampa, Dallas
5. U.S. Bank - Minneapolis (HQ), Atlanta
6. PNC - Pittsburgh, Harrisburg
8. Goldman - Dallas, SLC
9. TD - Austin, Greenville
10. Cap One - Tysons (HQ), Richmond, Dallas
Seems like Dallas, not Charlotte, is that labor cost arbitrage location. Doesn't seem like anyone has a large back office in Charlotte, in fact, unless you count Wells - in which case the "back office" houses 1/4 of its C-suite. (Wells is also rumored to be shopping for a large Dallas office.)

Originally Posted by Heel82

Virginia suffered a population loss between 1860 and 1870. And not just a small one, but nearly a quarter of the population.

It also lost 50 counties to West Virginia. The combined population of the two still increased ~11% over the 1860s.

[Heel82]

Originally Posted by paytonc

It also lost 50 counties to West Virginia. The combined population of the two still increased ~11% over the 1860s.

And there it is. I knew something seemed off about that.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by paytonc

Correct, e.g., SF's Bank of America was acquired by the North Carolina National Bank. Quick pull off LinkedIn of where the largest non-Charlotte HQ'd banks are hiring, outside NY/NJ:
1. Chase - Dallas, Wilmington DE
3. Wells Fargo - Charlotte, Des Moines
4. Citi - Tampa, Dallas
5. U.S. Bank - Minneapolis (HQ), Atlanta
6. PNC - Pittsburgh, Harrisburg
8. Goldman - Dallas, SLC
9. TD - Austin, Greenville
10. Cap One - Tysons (HQ), Richmond, Dallas
Seems like Dallas, not Charlotte, is that labor cost arbitrage location. Doesn't seem like anyone has a large back office in Charlotte, in fact, unless you count Wells - in which case the "back office" houses 1/4 of its C-suite. (Wells is also rumored to be shopping for a large Dallas office.)

PNC Financial is headquartered in Pittsburgh; you left that note off the list.

Which Greenville is TD Bank US (HQ: Cherry Hill, NJ) hiring in? (There's a section of Wilmington, Del., bearing that name, hence my question.)

[paytonc]

Greenville, SC. It's very much a back office, i.e., an East Coast call center. Wonder what'll happen to that now that they've bought Memphis' largest bank.