Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Great another DC v Boston thread has found it's way to prominence, after DC wasn't even being compared to Boston, it was being compared to Philadelphia.
Here's what we know.
DC isn't more dense than Philadelphia or Boston today.
DC proper is growing faster than both Philadelphia and Boston for two decades in a row.
DC (61 sq mi) at it's current growth rate will pass Philadelphia (134 sq mi) in citywide density around 2030 at least.
DC was less populous than Boston in 2010, and by 2020 DC was more populous, so yes it has "gained ground".
The DC diamond of 102 sq miles is an original planned district, so legitimate comparisons to whole cities of over 100 sq miles can be made. Comparing Boston and a bunch of neighboring cities surrounding it that have been much independent their entire history then adding up to 102 sq mi is not apples to apples. DC's Diamond is almost in equidistant shape like a single city.
There are more housing units going up in DC proper at 61 sq mi, DC's diamond at 102 sq mi, and DC expanded to 134 sq miles than at each comparable level in either Philadelphia or Boston. Which means at this rate the density at all 3 levels DC will catch up, in the near future. It may not catch Boston proper in citywide density however.
You are abusing city limits with those facts. At 61 sq miles (either Suffolk County+Everett) or Boston, Cambridge, Somerville, Chelsea “Boston” grew by 85,000 or 84,000 while DC by 87,000. So DC “gained” 41 ppsm in 10 years. At that rate it will be like 2260 before it reaches parity with Boston in density,
The reverse is true vs Philly. While it’s true it will pass Philly in citywide density (most likely) because Philly is very big compared to DC not because Center City/South Philly is less dense than equivalent DC neighborhoods
Also wtf does shaped like a city mean? Have you seen literally any city in the United States? Is Houston not shaped like a city? Is Cincinnati not shaped like a city? Is Atlanta not shaped like a city? Is Boston itself not shaped like a city?
Just curious: The folks computing comparable-to-Philly's-land-area population/density for Boston have all omitted Milton and Dedham, both of which directly border Boston on its southern end.
To keep it at 135 square miles, you'd have to remove Waltham and maybe one other town. What figures do we get with Milton and Dedham (the latter, I think, is less densely built than Waltham) included instead?
As for building large apartment buildings, it seems that's all that's being built in Philadelphia these days.
Just curious: The folks computing comparable-to-Philly's-land-area population/density for Boston have all omitted Milton and Dedham, both of which directly border Boston on its southern end.
To keep it at 135 square miles, you'd have to remove Waltham and maybe one other town. What figures do we get with Milton and Dedham (the latter, I think, is less densely built than Waltham) included instead?
As for building large apartment buildings, it seems that's all that's being built in Philadelphia these days.
I think it’s a combo of then being about as far from the actual city center and the development patterns of Boston. While the walking distance from Waltham to Boston is 10 miles as is Dedham, the driving distance is 11.5 miles for Waltham but 20 miles for Dedham. So it’s more disconnected. You’d drop back from 1,503,000 to like 1,463,000 and lose about 2 sq miles swapping out Dedham for Waltham.
That’s what I am talking about when I say Boston (and DC) have optimized numbers because you’re kind of gerrymandering the biggest population you can find. While Philly is just kind of Philly. If you gerrymandered Philly you could probably get 1.72 million of something in 134 sq miles.
Just curious: The folks computing comparable-to-Philly's-land-area population/density for Boston have all omitted Milton and Dedham, both of which directly border Boston on its southern end.
To keep it at 135 square miles, you'd have to remove Waltham and maybe one other town. What figures do we get with Milton and Dedham (the latter, I think, is less densely built than Waltham) included instead?
As for building large apartment buildings, it seems that's all that's being built in Philadelphia these days.
Why would we include Dedham and Milton? They’re not very dense and they’re 12+ miles from downtown. Milton has a few trolley stops but generally these towns are without subway service. And not seeing much development. The southern suburbs just south of Boston are generally pretty different an the ones immediately north or west save for Quincy
Also wtf does shaped like a city mean? Have you seen literally any city in the United States? Is Houston not shaped like a city? Is Cincinnati not shaped like a city? Is Atlanta not shaped like a city? Is Boston itself not shaped like a city?
To be fair, he stated "DC's Diamond is almost in equidistant shape like a single city."
As for building large apartment buildings, it seems that's all that's being built in Philadelphia these days.
Yes, very true. Philadelphia is very much being pigeonholed as this rowhome-only city in this thread, but multi-family projects of significant size continue to proliferate.
There's no fewer than 15 large multi-family projects in/adjacent to Center City right now under construction or imminently so, including the largest in any urban core by unit count:
I think some folks forget Philadelphia's other key factors allowing it to accommodate more density relative to Boston or DC--1) lack of height restrictions, 2) lack of the same degree of fierce NIMBYism, and 3) generally narrower street layouts across the city, allowing structures to literally be much closer together by default.
Just curious: The folks computing comparable-to-Philly's-land-area population/density for Boston have all omitted Milton and Dedham, both of which directly border Boston on its southern end.
To keep it at 135 square miles, you'd have to remove Waltham and maybe one other town. What figures do we get with Milton and Dedham (the latter, I think, is less densely built than Waltham) included instead?
As for building large apartment buildings, it seems that's all that's being built in Philadelphia these days.
Do you have the new unit delivery counts for Philadelphia proper? It seems Boston doesn’t track their counts from what some other posters said. This is an absolutely pointless discussion without that data. How are we going to know the trends for unit count delivery without that data? If you have it, that would be very useful. Thanks!
Do you have the new unit delivery counts for Philadelphia proper? It seems Boston doesn’t track their counts from what some other posters said. This is an absolutely pointless discussion without that data. How are we going to know the trends for unit count delivery without that data? If you have it, that would be very useful. Thanks!
People are providing actual population data but you just don’t like it because it’s not on your side so you pretend it’s totally invalid
People are providing actual population data but you just don’t like it because it’s not on your side so you pretend it’s totally invalid
Loll, so you’re proving population data for the next 20 years? That’s the only thing I’m talking about. What are you talking about?
Whether in Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Paris, or Tokyo. The only thing that we all can actually say for certain is that a new building will provide new people living in the neighborhood. Do you not agree with that? This is getting very confusing. Didn’t Boston grow from 2010-2020 because of new construction?
Loll, so you’re proving population data for the next 20 years? That’s the only thing I’m talking about. What are you talking about?
Whether in Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Paris, or Tokyo. The only thing that we all can actually say for certain is that a new building will provide new people living in the neighborhood. Do you not agree with that? This is getting very confusing. Didn’t Boston grow from 2010-2020 because of new construction?
I think pretending to know what DC is going to build in 2032 is equally a crapshoot.
Nope. Especially in DC or New York or London that’s not always true. You don’t know if say some NBC employee who does Sunday Shows in DC is gonna swoop up the Condo to stay on weekends then go back to living in NYC during the week. A duplex with two families being replaced with a small apartment with say 9 units building that’s bought up by rich college students who have the entire apartment to themselves might actually decrease the population.
You do not know if going from 2 units to 9 units drops the population from 10 to 9 or increases it from 3 to 23.
That’s literally why the Census (US and local) exists rather than just counting mailing
addresses
Another example is I know a neighborhood by a university where the entire block was originally 3 bedroom Triple Deckers. It was converted to college apartments. In every floor they turned the dining room into a living room and the living room into a bedroom.
So this whole block saw a 25% increase in bedrooms without any new construction or new units.
Last edited by btownboss4; 05-01-2022 at 11:15 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
