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Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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^^^ That last development that just broke ground posted by MDAllStar "the Stacks" will max out at 2000 units. The first phase now going up is 1,100 units. That's just one square block of apartments going up in Buzzard Point which is rapidly densifying. I couldn't even begin to try and total out the other surrounding units going up now or breaking ground this year in that immediate Census block.
DC's right now also on a multi family unit building craze, currently only bested by Dallas, NYC, and Phoenix.
Although Philadelphia is twice the land mass, I don't believe it it has the multitude of areas across the entire city to keep up with DC's citywide density by 2030 and probably earlier. For peak density in certain blocks I could see areas like the one you mentioned of Center City around Market and JFK Blvd staying ahead possibly, but they will still need to continue adding units of housing. The thing is DC has so many random areas in all four quadrants of planned large scale apartment/condo additions in it's pipeline, that's going to keep it chugging along further for a while.
^^^ That last development that just broke ground posted by MDAllStar "the Stacks" will max out at 2000 units. The first phase now going up is 1,100 units. That's just one square block of apartments going up in Buzzard Point which is rapidly densifying. I couldn't even begin to try and total out the other surrounding units going up now or breaking ground this year in that immediate Census block.
DC's right now also on a multi family unit building craze, currently only bested by Dallas, NYC, and Phoenix.
Although Philadelphia is twice the land mass, I don't believe it it has the multitude of areas across the entire city to keep up with DC's citywide density by 2030 and probably earlier. For peak density in certain blocks I could see areas like the one you mentioned of Center City around Market and JFK Blvd staying ahead possibly, but they will still need to continue adding units of housing. The thing is DC has so many random areas in all four quadrants of planned large scale apartment/condo additions in it's pipeline, that's going to keep it chugging along further for a while.
And I think you're right about that last paragraph.
Philadelphia may have an abundance of vacant land, but the trouble is, much of it consists of small lots and parcels not big enough to build multi-unit apartment or condo buildings on — they're really good for rowhouses primarily. Now, I know that these can be built to contain anywhere from two to six dwelling units — I live in a 3-story rowhouse that was converted into three apartments — but doing that won't produce the kind of density needed to really propel the per-unit-area figures into the stratosphere we all seem to be shooting for here.
That will require dozens of Broadridges*, Arthauses, Laurels and LVL Norths (that last being the building being assembled that I took a picture of upthread). And those in turn require larger lots. DC's ace in the hole here is that it has loads of large buildable parcels in Southwest and Southeast above the Anacostia, and from what I've seen, these are being built upon at a furious pace. To get large enough parcels in the middle of Center City, builders have to resort to demolishing existing buildings. Now, I'm sure no one is going to miss the three-story parking garage at 12th and Sansom that is now being replaced by a (I think) 20-story apartment building, and any tears shed over the loss of the Wendy's and two other restaurants at the NW corner of 11th and Walnut, where Bock Development will build a similar tower, have been shed already. Ditto for the former Midtown II diner at the SE corner of 11th and Sansom, where a third tower is slated to go.
Note that all three of these buildings are rising/to rise on the same block in Washington Square West. This means that the population density of that block group should zoom up once the buildings are occupied. (As of the 2015-19 ACS average, it stands at 18,331.28 ppsm. This block group also includes a six-year-old apartment tower with street-floor retail at 1213 Walnut Street.)
Further, most of the new multifamily construction is rising in "greater Center City" and a few adjacent ZIP codes to its west, south and north. That means that most of the city's 135 square miles are seeing little of this type of construction; beyond that district, it's mainly rowhouse developments.
So, like you, I also expect DC to catch up with Philadelphia in citywide population density eventually and ultimately surpass it. I just think it may take a little longer than you might think given developments in Greater Center City and neighboring areas.
*WIth 478 apartments and co-living units, Broadridge is now the single largest rental apartment building in Philadelphia.
The last thing Philadelphia needs is more structural density. It’s already chaotic.(continue to) Clean the city that you have and fill those vacant lots with smal row homes and rehabilitate or rebuild the decrepit ones first. Then there can be more fervor for these dorm style apartments DC has in abundance. If that means DC surpasses in density for a while that sounds fine from my vantage point at least.
The last thing Philadelphia needs is more structural density. It’s already chaotic.(continue to) Clean the city that you have and fill those vacant lots with smal row homes and rehabilitate or rebuild the decrepit ones first. Then there can be more fervor for these dorm style apartments DC has in abundance. If that means DC surpasses in density for a while that sounds fine from my vantage point at least.
I think most Philadelphians would agree with that approach. The structural density of Philadelphia can actually support a lot more people as is even with current development patterns without increasing the density or massing of new buildings dramatically. Heck, the city already supported a population of 2 million decades ago with even fewer housing units, and it wasn't considered "overcrowded."
Like you say, it's a matter of firming it up with sensible infill and rehabs making neighborhoods more livable for families.
Again, though, I go back to demographic trends. What kinds of people are being attracted to these new housing units? Families with children? Childless couples? Singles? Or will they be part-time units occupied only part of the year?
This will be a major factor in the population growth/increasing density conversation moving forward.
And I think you're right about that last paragraph.
Philadelphia may have an abundance of vacant land, but the trouble is, much of it consists of small lots and parcels not big enough to build multi-unit apartment or condo buildings on — they're really good for rowhouses primarily. Now, I know that these can be built to contain anywhere from two to six dwelling units — I live in a 3-story rowhouse that was converted into three apartments — but doing that won't produce the kind of density needed to really propel the per-unit-area figures into the stratosphere we all seem to be shooting for here.
That will require dozens of Broadridges*, Arthauses, Laurels and LVL Norths (that last being the building being assembled that I took a picture of upthread). And those in turn require larger lots. DC's ace in the hole here is that it has loads of large buildable parcels in Southwest and Southeast above the Anacostia, and from what I've seen, these are being built upon at a furious pace. To get large enough parcels in the middle of Center City, builders have to resort to demolishing existing buildings. Now, I'm sure no one is going to miss the three-story parking garage at 12th and Sansom that is now being replaced by a (I think) 20-story apartment building, and any tears shed over the loss of the Wendy's and two other restaurants at the NW corner of 11th and Walnut, where Bock Development will build a similar tower, have been shed already. Ditto for the former Midtown II diner at the SE corner of 11th and Sansom, where a third tower is slated to go.
Note that all three of these buildings are rising/to rise on the same block in Washington Square West. This means that the population density of that block group should zoom up once the buildings are occupied. (As of the 2015-19 ACS average, it stands at 18,331.28 ppsm. This block group also includes a six-year-old apartment tower with street-floor retail at 1213 Walnut Street.)
Further, most of the new multifamily construction is rising in "greater Center City" and a few adjacent ZIP codes to its west, south and north. That means that most of the city's 135 square miles are seeing little of this type of construction; beyond that district, it's mainly rowhouse developments.
So, like you, I also expect DC to catch up with Philadelphia in citywide population density eventually and ultimately surpass it. I just think it may take a little longer than you might think given developments in Greater Center City and neighboring areas.
*WIth 478 apartments and co-living units, Broadridge is now the single largest rental apartment building in Philadelphia.
I’ve mentioned over the years that DC is headed for more of a Manhattan NYC vibe in the core compared to other cities. Height restrictions and large vacant parcels of land are allowing it. If DC was built like Philadelphia or Boston without massive amount of blank open space, DC would never have been able to do this. In the 21st century, it’s almost like a planned high-rise city from an urban planning standpoint. Being a city with more detached single family housing for families than cities like Philadelphia and Boston, you kind of get the best of both worlds.
To your point, even areas with tons of single family detached houses are getting their own downtowns in Ward 7 and Ward 8 east of the river.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,568,606 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino
I think most Philadelphians would agree with that approach. The structural density of Philadelphia can actually support a lot more people as is even with current development patterns without increasing the density or massing of new buildings dramatically. Heck, the city already supported a population of 2 million decades ago with even fewer housing units, and it wasn't considered "overcrowded."
Like you say, it's a matter of firming it up with sensible infill and rehabs making neighborhoods more livable for families.
Again, though, I go back to demographic trends. What kinds of people are being attracted to these new housing units? Families with children? Childless couples? Singles? Or will they be part-time units occupied only part of the year?
This will be a major factor in the population growth/increasing density conversation moving forward.
Philly can fit 2.5 million people in the city. The issue is how. I agree with BostonBorn that it’s so frenetic already in terms of building “density”, but not over crowded with over sized buildings all over the city. Center city a small space covering the city. Imagine just 1/3 of the dense row home neighborhoods across the city turned into minimum 15 story apartment buildings taking up that same space. Even if the city had 1/2 people per unit, the city could raise it’s density tremendously, especially if it ups the multi family unit developments.
Philadelphia is already top 3/4 in pure urban scale building density, this won’t change regardless of what other cities do. But the population density would be greatly increased if there’s city wide attention to building large scale apartment/condo developments.
Philly can fit 2.5 million people in the city. The issue is how. I agree with BostonBorn that it’s so frenetic already in terms of building “density”, but not over crowded with over sized buildings all over the city. Center city a small space covering the city. Imagine just 1/3 of the dense row home neighborhoods across the city turned into minimum 15 story apartment buildings taking up that same space. Even if the city had 1/2 people per unit, the city could raise it’s density tremendously, especially if it ups the multi family unit developments.
Philadelphia is already top 3/4 in pure urban scale building density, this won’t change regardless of what other cities do. But the population density would be greatly increased if there’s city wide attention to building large scale apartment/condo developments.
Making Philly Child-Friendly is literally the easiest way to increase population density. Suddenly a 3 bedroom townhome can hold 5 people not 3. If middle class families felt comfortable in most of Philly
And you don’t even have to build anything. And that’s not “overcrowding” either. Instead every 31 year old married couple moved to Haddonfield or Norristown
Making Philly Child-Friendly is literally the easiest way to increase population density. Suddenly a 3 bedroom townhome can hold 5 people not 3. If middle class families felt comfortable in most of Philly
And you don’t even have to build anything. And that’s not “overcrowding” either. Instead every 31 year old married couple moved to Haddonfield or Norristown
Cities built more traditionally dense like Philadelphia with an overwhelming amount of rowhouses versus single family homes with a yard is great for urban enthusiasts like you and I, but to your point, they aren’t the best for families that have a desire for a detached or semi-detached house with a yard for the kids and dog to play and run. The more of those types of neighborhoods a city can create, the greater the opportunity to keep families in the city.
I think moving forward, the urban core of DC west of the river and east of Rock Creek Park will be DC’s version of Manhattan “the city” and west of Rock Creek Park + East of the River will be DC’s version of Brooklyn/Queen’s with a mixture of large condo/apartment buildings, row-houses with yards, and detached single family houses with yards.
The style of row-houses in Philly are on average more urban than DC rowhouses. The Philly row-houses have stoops which isn’t common in DC. Most have front yards. DC and Philly moving forward will definitely offer a different type of urban. Like I have said, DC’s urban core will be more Manhattan urban while Philadelphia with have row-house urban on lock!
The style of row-houses in Philly are on average more urban than DC rowhouses. The Philly row-houses have stoops which isn’t common in DC. Most have front yards. DC and Philly moving forward will definitely offer a different type of urban. Like I have said, DC’s urban core will be more Manhattan urban while Philadelphia with have row-house urban on lock!
DC is obviously building more big class A apartment buildings than Boston or Philly. That's great to see.
The micro density in these urban pockets is certainly impressive. But, it also demonstrates how simply looking at one quantitative stat can be misleading. Rittenhouse may have a lower peak pop density then the blocks in DC with 12-story apartment buildings. When you shift the analysis from the hyperlocal Census Blocks to slightly larger Census Tracts, you see the area around Rittenhouse has higher pop densities is more consistently densely populated than Mt Vernon Triangle which quickly transitions to lower density row houses and single use office buildings.
Mt Vernon has a peak census tract of 61k ppsm with the two adjacent ones being 30 and 29kppsm respectively. https://censusreporter.org/profiles/...f-columbia-dc/
Rittenhouse has a peak census tract of 94k ppsm with the two adjacent ones being 76k and 49kppsm respectively. https://censusreporter.org/profiles/...iladelphia-pa/
Plus, that is only a measure of residential density. Rittenhouse has a much higher street level density when you include the total activity with hotels, shops, eating/drinking, office buildings. If you are looking for Manhattan style experience, I strongly suspect someone is going to be far happier in Rittenhouse than Mt Vernon Triangle or Navy Yard.
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