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That's one of the few non-Downtown stations in the system without significant TOD. Also, while no one would claim Rainier Beach (literally on the very edge of Seattle city boundary) is urban, I wouldn't call this super sprawled out generic suburbia (1 block from the station):
I think a couple of things to factor in are that the Expo Line stop was opened in 2016 as opposed to 2009 for Rainier Beach, and so it'll likely take quite a while for TOD to make its way around that stop since it's already developed, albeit very suburban in development. A 5 minute or so walk away to Pico and Westwood is quite a bit more developed though and I think is getting TOD right now. I also would say that part of the rationale for the stop is likely ease of transfer to the buses along Westwood.
That being said, LA is likely to have pretty bad TOD for a large proportion of its stations come 2030 simply because of the political maneuverings it took to get mass transit funding which meant targeting quite a lot of stations that aren't in particularly dense areas that are often outside of the city proper. There will also be a lot of the newer stations that aren't that old now as well as new stations under construction, so that's also not a lot of time to really get a lot of TOD going since these aren't in greenfield sites. However, I would make the argument that in absolute amount of TOD, just because of LA's sheer size, it's probably up at or near the top. Just proportionally, it's going to not fare so well.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 07-25-2022 at 03:28 PM..
Ok, be sure and wake us up when Seattle's light rail ridership comes anywhere close to Portland or San Diego.
I think there's reasonable possibility that happens in two or threes years as the Seattle expansions are pretty aggressive with the East Link project especially important as it'll go to major secondary downtowns while doubling the frequency for many stations along the densest parts of Seattle. It's also for the most part going to be operating at some pretty decent speeds so that'll likely help with ridership.
I think a couple of things to factor in are that the Expo Line stop was opened in 2016 as opposed to 2009 for Rainier Beach, and so it'll likely take quite a while for TOD to make its way around that stop since it's already developed, albeit very suburban in development. A 5 minute or so walk away to Pico and Westwood is quite a bit more developed though and I think is getting TOD right now. I also would say that part of the rationale for the stop is likely ease of transfer to the buses along Westwood.
That being said, LA is likely to have pretty bad TOD for a large proportion of its stations come 2030 simply because of the political maneuverings it took to get mass transit funding which meant targeting quite a lot of stations that aren't in particularly dense areas that are often outside of the city proper. There will also be a lot of the newer stations that aren't that old now as well as new stations under construction, so that's also not a lot of time to really get a lot of TOD going since these aren't in greenfield sites. However, I would make the argument that in absolute amount of TOD, just because of LA's sheer size, it's probably up at or near the top. Just proportionally, it's going to not fare so well.
The neighborhood that stop is in is more densely populated than Capitol Hill. I used that station to go to a conference on Pico once. The fact that its right there on Westwood makes it an ever more bizarre example of "suburbia."
On average, L.A.'s "suburban" parts are going to be denser than Seattle's trendy urban neighborhoods with high rises.
Now let’s assume that next year the ridership per miles will be something in between 2019 and 2021 here is how things will look (sorry ahead of time if San Diego or Portland are also opening new lines next year)
Now let’s assume that next year the ridership per miles will be something in between 2019 and 2021 here is how things will look (sorry ahead of time if San Diego or Portland are also opening new lines next year)
And then in 2024 we have the Federal Way and Lynwood extensions.
Seattle: 177,410 / 56.5 / 3,140
Which would give it the highest ridership of any light rail system in the US
I don't doubt that this could happen, but in this thread Seattle is being given credit for things that aren't even in existence yet (as usual). San Diego has a completed-as in you can go ride it right now, not a future projection, nine miles of light rail cutting down the densely populated I-5/Morena blvd corridor that isn't factored into those stats.
The neighborhood that stop is in is more densely populated than Capitol Hill. I used that station to go to a conference on Pico once. The fact that its right there on Westwood makes it an ever more bizarre example of "suburbia."
On average, L.A.'s "suburban" parts are going to be denser than Seattle's trendy urban neighborhoods with high rises.
Oh yea, I'm very familiar with that neighborhood. Familiar enough that I remember the pretty large fight mounted against that station from the neighbors that was luckily unsuccessful. Familiar enough that I know it'll take a while before there's TOD around that station as a lot of the people with those homes have had them for a while and are relatively well-heeled, so TOD's going to be pretty limited to the commercial corridor that's a few blocks down in one direction rather than immediately around the station for quite a while.
I also recognize that effective TOD areas can often be smaller than that of a neighborhood. I also recognize that the issue isn't generally the Expo Line which even if a few of the stations are pretty sub-optimally placed (which is fine as it was relatively cheap for a US infrastructure project as it re-used existing rail ROW), still goes through pretty dense areas overall. The problem is more the lines stretching into the San Gabriel Valley and potentially beyond which is generally less dense and even more auto-centric. That's what I was referring to when I said proportionally the LA system isn't going to do great with TOD, but I think the sheer number of stations and the density/TOD of some stations is going to have LA coming on top in terms of absolute amount of TOD. It's pretty similar to the same arguments I make about LA's urbanity/walkability--lots of sprawl including dense sprawl as it doesn't matter as either are terrible for walking or mass transit to do anything, but the area is of such large size and population that there's going to be a large expanded core and nodes of density and walkability which in terms of absolute area and population served probably puts it on top for the West Coast cities.
I will say though, since this forum is to be inclusive of Canada and Mexico, Vancouver's probably the most aggressive when it comes to TOD around transit stops.
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