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I did caveat by saying that “if” the incomes posted are accurate. I don’t know the source nor the timing.
I’m not sure that I follow your explanation. Are you saying that the people moving to Miami don’t show up in local income surveys and that the median incomes are potentially incorrect?
I think he's saying that in conjunction with people who just already have wealth, but not necessarily high income or at least not reported high income.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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Originally Posted by 2Easy
I did caveat by saying that “if” the incomes posted are accurate. I don’t know the source nor the timing.
I’m not sure that I follow your explanation. Are you saying that the people moving to Miami don’t show up in local income surveys and that the median incomes are potentially incorrect?
This has been a point I’ve brought up for years regarding looking solely at reported W-2 income. It does not capture all the wealth of an area—you have retirees who are spending previously earned wealth, foreigners who are taking money out of their countries and parking it (buying) real estate (along with furnishing it, buying cars, etc that does not show up as income), and Miami is more dependent upon self employment (rather than corporate employment), with not all earnings being reported (and I’m not talking waitpersons only). I’m not saying that makes Miami more affordable but it certainly exacerbates the (reported) wage income v rental affordability issue. In other words, affordability IS bad/awful but a little less awful than reported income by itself indicates.
Last edited by elchevere; 10-31-2022 at 11:07 AM..
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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Originally Posted by NearFantastica
A poster on reddit recently debunked Zumper and their rent reports, basically its all based by units through their company, which skew entirely towards newer high end units within the downtown core of cities. They're not a good representative source for any city. So you have a city like Miami which seems expensive, but they're only listing the average rent prices for newer luxury apartments which inflates the prices like crazy making it appear more expensive than it really is. That would explain why Phoenix's numbers looked way off to me, they must have limited data for luxury apartments in Phoenix core which explains the odd average rent pricing for that city.
There is some merit to your point except rents have also gone up commensurately in less luxurious, non-coastal areas of Miami as well—not just in the more expensive coastal areas with luxury buildings along the beach and mainland. My maid lives in inland Doral (aka Doralzuela) in a non luxury building and her rent went up 40% not that long ago !! ....in other words, the non luxury rental market is contributing to the high rents here as well.
Last edited by elchevere; 10-31-2022 at 12:01 PM..
This has been a point I’ve brought up for years regarding looking solely at reported W-2 income. It does not capture all the wealth of an area—you have retirees who are spending previously earned wealth, foreigners who are taking money out of their countries and parking it (buying) real estate (along with furnishing it, buying cars, etc that does not show up as income), and Miami is more dependent upon self employment (rather than corporate employment), with not all earnings being reported (and I’m not talking waitpersons only). I’m not saying that makes Miami more affordable but it certainly exacerbates the (reported) wage income v rental affordability issue. In other words, affordability IS bad/awful but a little less awful than reported income by itself indicates.
I don’t know the source data for the median incomes that were provided and whether it came from W-2’s or was self-reported, but now I’m curious as to what Miami renters provide as proof of income?
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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Originally Posted by 2Easy
I don’t know the source data for the median incomes that were provided and whether it came from W-2’s or was self-reported, but now I’m curious as to what Miami renters provide as proof of income?
Not sure, as I don’t rent out properties but I do know the equivalent of 3 months rent up front is common here (first, last and a security deposit equivalent to a month’s rent).
Sounds like this building just might not be the best example of average rent across the entire city.
No it isn't, but it goes to show how crazy the premium neighborhoods of Manhattan have gotten, rental wise. During the height of the pandemic, that $4k/month studio was going for $2.2K. That's an almost 100% increase in less than two years.
Plus, pressure on the high-end, premium areas puts pressure on the areas below that and below that as people get pushed down the rental tiers.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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Originally Posted by MB1562
No it isn't, but it goes to show how crazy the premium neighborhoods of Manhattan have gotten, rental wise. During the height of the pandemic, that $4k/month studio was going for $2.2K. That's an almost 100% increase in less than two years.
Plus, pressure on the high-end, premium areas puts pressure on the areas below that and below that as people get pushed down the rental tiers.
Wages is a big one. In Jersey I do look for jobs in NYC, Philly and Boston. The salaries are lower in Philly than Boston or NYC. That will push people to look at slightly slower rents, keeping rents from ballooning.
And Boston is a very polished, walkable, clean city with lots to do and a very strong economy. Pristine universities, a diverse economy, great food options and a lot to do around the area. You can never be bored. I was never bored when I lived around Boston. On top of that Massachusetts is a fantastic state that ranks to the top in nearly every good category like Education (1), Healthcare (2), Crime (4), Quality of Life (4), Happiness (2), Economy (8-20), etc.. The state punches above its weight and Boston happens to be the city of that state. Is Boston my favorite city? No, that's why I live in Jersey. Do I understand why so many people consider it their favorite city? Yes. DO I understand why the rent is so high there? Yes. That high, though? No, I do not. And Boston keeps underbuilding.
Philadelphia is interesting. They are building a lot (More than Boston, actually, more than the entirety of Greater Boston!), a lot of new transplants from DC and NYC as they are getting priced out, a growing economy, all while being affordable and close to attractions like the Jersey Shore and Poconos. I have a few friends who relocated to Philadelphia after getting their MsC/MBA/MPP/MCURP recently, and whether they like the city of Philadelphia or not (Its 50/50 of those who live there, not getting into that debate), they find Philadelphia extremely convenient with being close to good beaches, good malls, hiking, mountains, and other cities. On contrast, my friends who live in NYC really have to like NYC to live there. You don't get the opportunities to leave and access like you would in Philadelphia (And Boston, but Boston is $$$$). Therefore, Philadelphia is attracting a subset (large subset) of people who want the city life + amenities, with good access to the natural environment (lets jump to the jersey shore/mountains/go hiking, be there in 45-60!).
I think Philadelphia has the potential to grow for people like me. People who have dogs, want to start a family, like the urban environment, have normal jobs, want the urban environment without giving up my retirement on rent, who want to have a good QOL by travelling, having access to the beach and mall and mountains on a whim, and want to grow with the city. This is impractical in NYC and price wise, Boston.
I just hope if Philly sees a boom, it learns from SF and Boston's mistakes and doesn't repeat them.
Yep, I know at least three people since covid who left DC for Philly due to lower cost of living and being priced out of DC.
Yep, I know at least three people since covid who left DC for Philly due to lower cost of living and being priced out of DC.
Yep. And you are like a 2-3 hour train ride from Philadelphia if you want to go to DC for the day/weekend.
Honestly, moving away from a city you once lived in and visiting can teach you how to appreciate the city more. I know that sounds weird and counterintuitive, but you really do grow to like the things you once took for granted. All while living in a city that you are exploring. Its like the best of both worlds. Exploring a new city/region, yet having the privledge to return to your old city on a long weekend.
Hearing some landlords in OC are asking for full year rent, which could be 50k or more in some cases.
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