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If it helps you contemplate, Chesterfield, Henrico, and Richmond are about 30% smaller GDP than Wake County. Wake + Durham is about 40% bigger than the entirety of Richmond MSA’s GDP. Richmond packs a punch, but it’s on a different tier to the Triangle.
Richmond’s peers would be New Orleans, Memphis, Jacksonville, OK City. Not Salt Lake for similar reasons as the Triangle.
I said GDP per Capita. Wake has more people. That's why for apples to apples you look at per Capita. If it helps you contemplate.
I had a chance to visit SLC this past September, and of course I now live in Raleigh...
I understand if people place Raleigh and Salt Lake in separate tiers from Richmond based on the fact they are the alpha cities of much larger regions. That's your prerogative, I can't hate on it...
Personally, Richmond can't do anything about its location between Tidewater and Your Nation's Capital, so that's not something I hold against the city; neither Raleigh nor Salt Lake would have the range of freedom, for lack of a better descriptive, if they were sandwiched between two more populous regions as well...
I've been here in Raleigh for over 3 years and I've grown to love it here. One thing that hasn't changed though, is Raleigh, whether taken as just Raleigh MSA or the entire Triangle, hasn't separated itself from Richmond in terms of amenities offered. I've only been to Salt Lake once, many posters haven't been at all, but I didn't find it to be of a separate distinction either, and ultimately when we talk about city hierarchy what we're really saying is how much is going on in one group of cities relative to another group (among other factors)...
GDP Rich (~$99B) is in the same boat as GDP Salt Lake (~118B) and GDP Raleigh (~$108B). In fairness, both are outgrowing Rich (Rgh +12.15%; SLC +11.09%; Rich +8.46%), but as of the moment they don't really have enough distance in between Richmond to warrant separate tiers. Again, of course if you use a CSA numerology the gaps are significant, except again, Richmond thru no fault of its own, has no CSA---->though in real life most of The Peninsula, as well as Charlottesville, are part of Richmond's overall sphere of influence...
Shout out to mpier and Spencer for always bringing facts to feelings fights. In real life living down here, there is nowhere near the disdain and vitriol Carolinians on here throw towards Richmond. We all know CD is a different kinda place, and we know what to expect from posters when Richmond is a topic of discussion. I live here. There is no measurable gap in the overall lived experience between Raleigh and Richmond, no matter what growth numbers we can talk about that looks good on paper...
Raleigh and Richmond might as well be in the same tier. Even with Raleigh's recent economic growth, it still has a smaller feel than Richmond. Richmond has the vibe and appearance of a much larger city, from downtown to the Fan, and I say this as a Triangle native. There's nothing you can do in Raleigh that Richmond doesn't have outside of sports. The Hurricanes and college sports is definitely a plus for Raleigh and the Triangle as a whole. Richmond doesn't strike me as being a big sports city. I guess VCU is popular for basketball, though?
With that being said, I think Raleigh will be in a higher tier a few years down the road. The economic growth of the Triangle obviously leaves a huge impact and can't be ignored. Richmond isn't struggling by any means, though. Both areas have a lot to offer.
Raleigh and Richmond might as well be in the same tier. Even with Raleigh's recent economic growth, it still has a smaller feel than Richmond. Richmond has the vibe and appearance of a much larger city, from downtown to the Fan, and I say this as a Triangle native. There's nothing you can do in Raleigh that Richmond doesn't have outside of sports. The Hurricanes and college sports is definitely a plus for Raleigh and the Triangle as a whole. Richmond doesn't strike me as being a big sports city. I guess VCU is popular for basketball, though?
With that being said, I think Raleigh will be in a higher tier a few years down the road. The economic growth of the Triangle obviously leaves a huge impact and can't be ignored. Richmond isn't struggling by any means, though. Both areas have a lot to offer.
VCU and UR sports are big deals but no, Richmond isn't a city that revolves around its collegiate sports the way Triangle does. Just different cities in that manner, and that's not really a negative or positive for anyone. It's just simply an "is what it is" thing. Some people are NCAA crazed, some aren't, some cities are and others aren't. People who view either side as a plus or minus are speaking thru bias...
As far as pro sports, yeah you can't go to a hockey event in Richmond. Most Richmonders are Washington sports supporters, with next being Baltimore sports supporters, then a smattering of random loyalties. Obviously Triangle is Canes (Caps for most hockey interested Richmonders); Triangle is mostly Panthers (Commanders for Rich with some Ravens heads), but Raleigh has more of a transient football fan base than Rich; Triangle really has no MLS loyalty but Rich is mostly DCU; Triangle has no major MLB loyalty but Rich is mostly Nats then O's; Triangle has no real NBA loyalties and Rich is mostly Wizards...
Besides NHL both Triangulars and Richmonders have to travel if they have interest in major league sports, but I think something misunderstood by non-Richmonders is this isn't viewed negatively by Richmonders. This city has alot going on, even those interested in big league sports aren't disturbed by Richmond not having major league teams. People go to DC and Baltimore quite often for many, many reasons, it really isn't an issue to go for sports if you choose. This board has continually proven that the topic of sporting events is a bigger deal to non-Richmonders than it is for locals...
But yes, other than that, and some people place a large onis on this, but all facts, there's no opportunity you can experience in Triangle, a much larger region, than you can in Richmond. This is why it doesn't matter whether you consider the whole area or just Raleigh, they are the same tier of city...
I'd expect Raleigh for the foreseeable future to widen its economic lead, also meaning Triangle as a region will, and as such yes, it will add more urban amenities, and it's scale of urbanity will expand, and eventually its probably likely that it separates from Richmond. As you said we aren't there yet, and Richmond isn't running in place, it's also expanding its own cultural experience and profile...
Heel82 is one of many NC'ers who'd love to make this another Triangle/Rich thread, but this ain't that, so while I welcome opinions on whether people view Raleigh and Richmond of similar stature or not, the purpose of this thread is to ask where within this group of cities you'd place Rich. I can always appreciate you trying to remain objective and give level headed responses, I do want to say that!
The multinodal CSAs of Raleigh and Salt Lake City are more reflective of their actual regional statures because the current MSA criteria makes it difficult to account for the way their natural (Wasatch Front) and built (Triangle) environments structure their settlement and commute patterns. Also Wake County (1,150,204) and Salt Lake County (1,186,421) each have nearly as many people as, and comparable GDPs to ($84B and $94B, respectively), the entire Richmond MSA which includes the secondary hub of Petersburg. Considering this information, I think it would be a bit difficult to successfully argue that Richmond is in the same tier as Raleigh and Salt Lake City IMO.
As far as an actual ranking goes, I'm not inclined to look up all the statistics for all of the named metros but I've long considered Louisville to be its closest peer in several respects and that still stands. But I'll note that a quick glance at population stats shows Jacksonville to be pulling away from the pack; I knew it had been growing rapidly for a little while now but hadn't realized that its metro is approaching 1.7M. But in terms of urban core development ("looking the part," as it were), Richmond certainly retains that edge over the hub of Florida's First Coast.
2021 data is Wake ($98 billion), Salt Lake ($116b), and Richmond MSA ($99 billion). Durham ($43 billion) and Utah County ($36 billion) would be basically like adding Loudon or Arlington to where Hanover County is. It would fundamentally change the equation for Richmond.
As far as amenities, I don’t know. The top-line is both SLC and Raleigh have pro teams as well as major college football programs. That’s not nothing. I haven’t done an inventory of the museums in Richmond/SLC, nor a headcount at the festivals. I imagine all three stack up well as capitals of their states. I believe Richmond shares its symphony and opera with the Tidewater and NoVa, whereas Charlotte and Raleigh maintain their own. The DPAC is nationally renowned as a performing arts theatre. Is the amenities outside sports that much better? Probably not much either way. There is much overlap to what the non-major cities provide.
The multinodal CSAs of Raleigh and Salt Lake City are more reflective of their actual regional statures because the current MSA criteria makes it difficult to account for the way their natural (Wasatch Front) and built (Triangle) environments structure their settlement and commute patterns. Also Wake County (1,150,204) and Salt Lake County (1,186,421) each have nearly as many people as, and comparable GDPs to ($84B and $94B, respectively), the entire Richmond MSA which includes the secondary hub of Petersburg. Considering this information, I think it would be a bit difficult to successfully argue that Richmond is in the same tier as Raleigh and Salt Lake City IMO.
As far as an actual ranking goes, I'm not inclined to look up all the statistics for all of the named metros but I've long considered Louisville to be its closest peer in several respects and that still stands. But I'll note that a quick glance at population stats shows Jacksonville to be pulling away from the pack; I knew it had been growing rapidly for a little while now but hadn't realized that its metro is approaching 1.7M. But in terms of urban core development ("looking the part," as it were), Richmond certainly retains that edge over the hub of Florida's First Coast.
So for you, question as it stands right now, in your opinion:
Raleigh and Salt Lake, or Raleigh + Salt Lake + Jacksonville have separated from the other cities on the list? Are these two, or three, cities within their own class right now, or are there cities the next step up you'd now place them with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel82
2021 data is Wake ($98 billion), Salt Lake ($116b), and Richmond MSA ($99 billion). Durham ($43 billion) and Utah County ($36 billion) would be basically like adding Loudon or Arlington to where Hanover County is. It would fundamentally change the equation for Richmond.
As far as amenities, I don’t know. The top-line is both SLC and Raleigh have pro teams as well as major college football programs. That’s not nothing. I haven’t done an inventory of the museums in Richmond/SLC, nor a headcount at the festivals. I imagine all three stack up well as capitals of their states. I believe Richmond shares its symphony and opera with the Tidewater and NoVa, whereas Charlotte and Raleigh maintain their own. The DPAC is nationally renowned as a performing arts theatre. Is the amenities outside sports that much better? Probably not much either way. There is much overlap to what the non-major cities provide.
Is there anything else you want to offer, re: Rich's relation to the other listed cities, or is a Richmond/Raleigh direct comp the only thing you can discuss?
2021 data is Wake ($98 billion), Salt Lake ($116b), and Richmond MSA ($99 billion). Durham ($43 billion) and Utah County ($36 billion) would be basically like adding Loudon or Arlington to where Hanover County is. It would fundamentally change the equation for Richmond.
At first, I thought I may have copied the county GDP numbers incorrectly or something but I just realized that the BEA news release from Dec. 8, the source I consulted, used chained-dollar GDP values which accounts for the slight differences in our numbers.
So for you, question as it stands right now, in your opinion:
Raleigh and Salt Lake, or Raleigh + Salt Lake + Jacksonville have separated from the other cities on the list? Are these two, or three, cities within their own class right now, or are there cities the next step up you'd now place them with?
Is there anything else you want to offer, re: Rich's relation to the other listed cities, or is a Richmond/Raleigh direct comp the only thing you can discuss?
I’d love to be knowledgeable enough about OK City and Louisville and Jacksonville to dissect it. As it stands though, I’m only comfortable expounding on the Triangle.
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