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It's not stagnant in population, but economy wise it's far from booming. Waco has Baylor while Killeen has Fort Hood I mean Fort Cavazos, though, both are economic driver for the two areas.
Both areas will be ok...but at the end Austin and DFW will continues to be much larger magnets sapping away "booms".
While Waco, Temple, and Killeen won't draw people the way Austin does, I can see such smaller cities doing fine population wise. Considering how Kenosha and Racine(though some of the new growth is into communities outside these 2 small cities, and into the rest of these counties) have drawn in some newer residents, due to their location between Chicago and Milwaukee.
It's the brain drain, lack of innovation, and poor levels of new job growth in different categories for most of western PA. This is in addition to the more insular Appalachian culture outside of Pittsburgh and Allegheny County. Cambria County (Johnstown), Somerset County, Fayette County, etc. are all generally losing 10% of their population every decade.
Some of the Pittsburgh boosters on here I think tend to shy away from the fact that most of Western PA is falling apart and act like Pittsburgh is in its own little bubble. The problem is there are several neighborhoods within Pittsburgh that are also struggling. I think the things really hurting Pittsburgh and Western PA right now are abysmal job growth levels and the Appalachian culture.
Some of the Pittsburgh boosters on here I think tend to shy away from the fact that most of Western PA is falling apart and act like Pittsburgh is in its own little bubble. The problem is there are several neighborhoods within Pittsburgh that are also struggling. I think the things really hurting Pittsburgh and Western PA right now are abysmal job growth levels and the Appalachian culture.
There's quite a bit of hyperbole here; Western PA is not "falling apart" writ large by any stretch, and it's much more diverse economically than it gets credit for. Braddock is not Meadville. Clairton is not New Castle. Monessen is not Greenville. The most economically deprived areas are, overwhelmingly, heavily concentrated in the forlorn mill towns.
This is an average middle-class neighborhood in Western Pennsylvania and what represents the vast majority of the region. Not this.
And I'm not sure what "Appalachian culture" means. Are you trying to equate Western PA with places like WV or Eastern KY? That really does miss a lot of nuance.
There's quite a bit of hyperbole here; Western PA is not "falling apart" writ large by any stretch, and it's much more diverse economically than it gets credit for. Braddock is not Meadville. Clairton is not New Castle. Monessen is not Greenville. The most economically deprived areas are, overwhelmingly, heavily concentrated in the forlorn mill towns.
This is an average middle-class neighborhood in Western Pennsylvania and what represents the vast majority of the region. Not this.
And I'm not sure what "Appalachian culture" means. Are you trying to equate Western PA with places like WV or Eastern KY? That really does miss a lot of nuance.
Go back and read my posts. I am responding to other posters who are discussing the same very things. I never once said Western PA was like West Virginia or Eastern Kentucky. Large sections of this part of the state though are struggling with finding their economic footing, substance use disorder, and rapidly declining populations. The towns and smaller cities are struggling financially, too. Most of the heavier population centers were formed around the mills/coal mining and there use to be a fight that those jobs could come back. Now these towns realize those jobs will not be coming back, but there is little drive to diversify or go after funding to increase quality of life measures.
Large sections of this part of the state though are struggling with finding their economic footing, substance use disorder, and rapidly declining populations. The towns and smaller cities are struggling financially, too. Most of the heavier population centers were formed around the mills/coal mining and there use to be a fight that those jobs could come back. Now these towns realize those jobs will not be coming back, but there is little drive to diversify or go after funding to increase quality of life measures.
I think it's the use of "Appalachian culture," which is unclear in this context. As I explained in my prior post, it's an oversimplification to characterize the entirety of non-Allegheny County Western PA in broad-brush fashion. Every town/municipality is different, with very degrees of financial conditions and/or social issues, like drug abuse and poverty/blight.
I also fail to see how this phrase: "Large sections of this part of the state though are struggling with finding their economic footing, substance use disorder, and rapidly declining populations. The towns and smaller cities are struggling financially, too" would not apply to practically every rural region of the US.
Now, granted, Western PA is particularly post-industrial compared to most other rural parts of the US, but the poverty and social dysfunction is just as glaring, if not worse, in most other states, in my experience. In other words, Western PA is far from unique by having communities that fall into those categories.
I think it's the use of "Appalachian culture," which is unclear in this context. As I explained in my prior post, it's an oversimplification to characterize the entirety of non-Allegheny County Western PA in broad-brush fashion. Every town/municipality is different, with very degrees of financial conditions and/or social issues, like drug abuse and poverty/blight.
I also fail to see how this phrase: "Large sections of this part of the state though are struggling with finding their economic footing, substance use disorder, and rapidly declining populations. The towns and smaller cities are struggling financially, too" would not apply to practically every rural region of the US.
Now, granted, Western PA is particularly post-industrial compared to most other rural parts of the US, but the poverty and social dysfunction is just as glaring, if not worse, in most other states, in my experience. In other words, Western PA is far from unique by having communities that fall into those categories.
Of course these towns are unique and different. Again, I never stated otherwise. But unlike other areas of Pennsylvania, I think the Appalachian culture and certain viewpoints in large swaths of Western PA holds this part of the state back where they are trying to reinvent themselves and their image.
I don't know what to tell you about failing to see the point. I work with several towns in Western PA with regard to local government. Boroughs like Beaver have a great and active downtown, and not far from high wealth like Sewickley, but in between you have Ambridge and Aliquippa. At least they are closer to larger resources that exists in the Pittsburgh region. Those same economic conditions, poverty, substance abuse exist in many rural areas of Western Pennsylvania making the problems that much more pronounced when you do not have more resources to address the issues. Of course it applies to areas all across the country, but sticking to the theme of this thread (and I am specifically talking about Western PA) I think Western Pennsylvania has many assets that are not marketed like they should be and are hindered by a lot of problems, that on a smaller local level, are not being addressed. It is really that simple. I am not talking West Virginia. No Kentucky. No Oregon.
Of course these towns are unique and different. Again, I never stated otherwise. But unlike other areas of Pennsylvania, I think the Appalachian culture and certain viewpoints in large swaths of Western PA holds this part of the state back where they are trying to reinvent themselves and their image.
I don't know what to tell you about failing to see the point. I work with several towns in Western PA with regard to local government. Boroughs like Beaver have a great and active downtown, and not far from high wealth like Sewickley, but in between you have Ambridge and Aliquippa. At least they are closer to larger resources that exists in the Pittsburgh region. Those same economic conditions, poverty, substance abuse exist in many rural areas of Western Pennsylvania making the problems that much more pronounced when you do not have more resources to address the issues. Of course it applies to areas all across the country, but sticking to the theme of this thread (and I am specifically talking about Western PA) I think Western Pennsylvania has many assets that are not marketed like they should be and are hindered by a lot of problems, that on a smaller local level, are not being addressed. It is really that simple. I am not talking West Virginia. No Kentucky. No Oregon.
Frankly, I think the more troubling (or troublesome) subject is how Pittsburgh's collar counties have fared.
Places like Arnold, in Westmoreland County, don't look like they've reverted to farmland the way that street in Clairton did, but they aren't getting the spillover from the Pittsburgh tech renaissance, either. The counties surrounding Allegheny aren't rural, but they're hurting as much as the rural ones are (or maybe more so).
(The funny thing was that you could see where there was money in New Kensington just to Arnold's south. Arnold was more blue-collar — it was apparently the birthplace of Alcoa, and its original mill there still stands.)
Of course these towns are unique and different. Again, I never stated otherwise. But unlike other areas of Pennsylvania, I think the Appalachian culture and certain viewpoints in large swaths of Western PA holds this part of the state back where they are trying to reinvent themselves and their image.
I honestly mostly agree with you here. My only real quibble was a perceived lack of giving room for a more complex picture, as opposed to one too often painted about Western PA (i.e., that it's "hopeless" aside from Pittsburgh), so I appreciate the clarification.
I do think that there's more of propensity to progress and work together than the region is often stereotyped, but my sense is that locals tend to fall in to the jaded "why bother?" or "it's not worth it" type of attitude, as opposed to fierce opposition to change. In my view, obscene amounts of municipal fragmentation is one of PA's biggest challenges, but that's a whole other conversation.
I still think hope lays within the region's very affordable and solid housing stock, and Main Streets with great bones (even if some need some serious attention), not to mention very appealing topography throughout. But of course more marketing and "new blood" is critical.
I honestly mostly agree with you here. My only real quibble was a perceived lack of giving room for a more complex picture, as opposed to one too often painted about Western PA (i.e., that it's "hopeless" aside from Pittsburgh), so I appreciate the clarification.
I do think that there's more of propensity to progress and work together than the region is often stereotyped, but my sense is that locals tend to fall in to the jaded "why bother?" or "it's not worth it" type of attitude, as opposed to fierce opposition to change. In my view, obscene amounts of municipal fragmentation is one of PA's biggest challenges, but that's a whole other conversation.
I still think hope lays within the region's very affordable and solid housing stock, and Main Streets with great bones (even if some need some serious attention), not to mention very appealing topography throughout. But of course more marketing and "new blood" is critical.
Sorry I really should clarify on my end. I am a huge supporter of all things Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania - as evident in my first post in this thread. I enjoy both Philadelphia and Pittsburgh immensely, as well as the fantastic small cities that make up Pennsylvania.
I think one of the many great things about Pennsylvania and Western Pennsylvania towns is that the downtown building stock is mostly still there in a lot of places. Again, though, it is just frustrating watching some of them deteriorate when there is little drive to redevelop or find people to invest in these towns. There is so much potential and I see it everyday. The region has so much beauty that I wish was marketed to not only the region, but the nation. It is affordable, livable and offers a lot.
It is just difficult working with mindsets that are holding the region back from making decent progress in areas, but existing social conditions are also making it harder as well.
While Waco, Temple, and Killeen won't draw people the way Austin does, I can see such smaller cities doing fine population wise. Considering how Kenosha and Racine(though some of the new growth is into communities outside these 2 small cities, and into the rest of these counties) have drawn in some newer residents, due to their location between Chicago and Milwaukee.
Some people have started moving to Bell County (Killeen/Temple) from the Austin area for more affordable housing and I'm sure that'll only accelerate with time.
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