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Two small "streetcar" style rail systems that operate as the flagship urban rail system of sizeable urban metros that one would assume to have much larger systems.
Detroit's "Q-Line" opened in 2017, runs 3.3 miles, and logged about 2600 riders a day this year.
Cincinnati's "Bell Connector" similarly opened in 2016, runs 3.6 miles, logging about 2400 riders a day this year.
The Bell Connector recently made the news by breaking its annual ridership record with three months left in the year.
Since it seems unlikely that either city will follow the suburban blueprint laid out by other cities in the region that are experiencing population growth, which system has the brighter future?
Would the limitations of the modern streetcar format pose any issues for expansion into a more serious and comprehensive system?
Two small "streetcar" style rail systems that operate as the flagship urban rail system of sizeable urban metros that one would assume to have much larger systems.
Detroit's "Q-Line" opened in 2017, runs 3.3 miles, and logged about 2600 riders a day this year.
Cincinnati's "Bell Connector" similarly opened in 2016, runs 3.6 miles, logging about 2400 riders a day this year.
The Bell Connector recently made the news by breaking its annual ridership record with three months left in the year.
Since it seems unlikely that either city will follow the suburban blueprint laid out by other cities in the region that are experiencing population growth, which system has the brighter future?
Would the limitations of the modern streetcar format pose any issues for expansion into a more serious and comprehensive system?
That is a good question. I suspect these streetcars were more designed, to serve tourist frequented areas than they were local residents.
After finding this thread, now I wonder how much ridership The Hop in Milwaukee sees a year.
True stories: the last time I was in Cincinnati, the Bell Connector was being tested(like with operators running tests of these streetcars) before service began. Last time I was in Milwaukee(for Doors Open Milwaukee) they were giving out free complimentary rides on The Hop, but I didn't do that since the places I wanted to visit weren't near the route of The Hop.
My guess is Cincinnati. It simply has more cohesive neighborhood centers you can stuck together.
While the Q line already connects Wayne St with Downtown and there really isn’t much else you can do. In Cincinnati connecting UC or the Northside to the network would actually drive ridership.
That is a good question. I suspect these streetcars were more designed, to serve tourist frequented areas than they were local residents.
After finding this thread, now I wonder how much ridership The Hop in Milwaukee sees a year.
True stories: the last time I was in Cincinnati, the Bell Connector was being tested(like with operators running tests of these streetcars) before service began. Last time I was in Milwaukee(for Doors Open Milwaukee) they were giving out free complimentary rides on The Hop, but I didn't do that since the places I wanted to visit weren't near the route of The Hop.
It's interesting because both these cities have all the characteristics of a place that would have a pretty big urban rail, but this is what they have.
The Bell Connector was opposed pretty vigorously by politicians including at the state level in Columbus, but Cincy bucked the anti-transit ways of its region and built anyway. After a slow start and years of ridicule, its now smashing ridership records.
If each city had massive streetcar systems over 100 years ago, I wonder how far this model could go as streetcars tend to max out under 10 miles these days.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
My guess is Cincinnati. It simply has more cohesive neighborhood centers you can stuck together.
While the Q line already connects Wayne St with Downtown and there really isn’t much else you can do. In Cincinnati connecting UC or the Northside to the network would actually drive ridership.
This^
The Q Line does alright for what it is. But if Detroit were to get serious about any transit expansion, they'll have to go next level beyond streetcars. If Detroit were to ever rebound with a redevelopment boom, given the layout of the city it would probably benefit from rail expansion built on elevated viaducts down the busiest corridors. It would also need to connect to suburban nodes. At this stage that would be several decades in the making.
Cincinnati's old urban core with narrow streets is more conducive for streetcars. Detroit doesn't really have that in the way that Cincinnati does.
Much bigger metro population (4.3 million vs 2.2 million) and much bigger city population, too (625k vs 310k).
Plus, Detroit is the much bigger tourist city, with a lot more interesting attractions, in my opinion.
And Detroit has NBA, NFL, NHL and MLB sports teams, with Cincinnati's NFL and MLB alone.
Cincinnati has MLS as well. Their new stadium opened up not far from two streetcar stops, Cincinnati Music Hall, the Cincinnati Orchestra and Washington Park. The immediate neighborhood around the stadium has some big plans. Cincinnati, I think, just has more interesting neighborhoods in and around its downtown.
There are few streetcar systems that are experiencing the growth that Cincinnati's is. From the riverfront, up through downtown (home to several large Fortune 500 companies), OTR... I know there are talks about connecting it up the hill through Clifton Heights toward the University of Cincinnati to take advantage of its 50,000-plus student population. You also connect to Cincinnati Children's and the Cincinnati Zoo, both some of the best in the country.
Cincinnati is so underrated and not well known on this site.
The Q Line does alright for what it is. But if Detroit were to get serious about any transit expansion, they'll have to go next level beyond streetcars. If Detroit were to ever rebound with a redevelopment boom, given the layout of the city it would probably benefit from rail expansion built on elevated viaducts down the busiest corridors. It would also need to connect to suburban nodes. At this stage that would be several decades in the making.
Cincinnati's old urban core with narrow streets is more conducive for streetcars. Detroit doesn't really have that in the way that Cincinnati does.
This is what I'm thinking.
Detroit is too big and too influential to put too many eggs in this basket.
I can't picture them saying "yeah, I guess we're pretty much done being a big city and this streetcar is as far as we'll take things." Or I suppose they could be iconoclastic, go the other direction and build a huge system as a nod to their legacy system. I'm not sure what hundreds of miles of streetcar track, or even 30 miles of it would look like today and how different it would be from light rail.
The Bell Connector seems to fit the character of Cincinnati well and appears to have significant demand for expansion.
Either way, its really interesting and exciting to see how far this format could be taken in the modern era. A common lament of cities that dismantled their infrastructure is "look at this huge streetcar system we once had." Would be amazing if one of these cities boldly announced plans to build back their entire legacy system.
Cincinnati has MLS as well. Their new stadium opened up not far from two streetcar stops, Cincinnati Music Hall, the Cincinnati Orchestra and Washington Park. The immediate neighborhood around the stadium has some big plans. Cincinnati, I think, just has more interesting neighborhoods in and around its downtown.
There are few streetcar systems that are experiencing the growth that Cincinnati's is. From the riverfront, up through downtown (home to several large Fortune 500 companies), OTR... I know there are talks about connecting it up the hill through Clifton Heights toward the University of Cincinnati to take advantage of its 50,000-plus student population. You also connect to Cincinnati Children's and the Cincinnati Zoo, both some of the best in the country.
Cincinnati is so underrated and not well known on this site.
Cincinnati offers a lot for its size--I agree. It does feel like a bigger city in that regard.
I've been to Cincinnati 3 times, but admittedly, my last trip there was wayyy back in 1993.
Any insight into why the ridership is so low in both cities? The BRT in Richmond, for example, services like 8k people a day. I believe BRT lines in similarly sized cities have similar ridership numbers. 2500 people a day seems small for cities of that size.
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