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The Rust Belt and it's not even a competition in my mind. IMO, there is nothing impressive about the Sun Belt due to the way it grew in tandem with the rise of auto-centric planning. Outside of San Francisco (if it's even considered Sun Belt) and San Diego to a much lesser extent, no city in the Sun Belt feels like an actual city to me. Give me all the architecture, walkability, legacy institutions, and transit networks that a good number of Rust Belt cities offer over any Sun Belt city any day of the week. While I do prefer warmth over the cold, I'll take shivering over being required to own a car to live my everyday life.
It's all about perception over reality. The perception is that people move to the Sunbelt to escape dense, walkable, urban environments in favor of big houses and more land. In reality, one of the trendiest areas in my particular city (Charlotte) is full of young professionals who choose townhomes and apartments that line a light rail line that extends in two directions from downtown . In the "South End" and "Noda" areas of town, light rail stations are literally at the entrance of apartment buildings. An urban planner recently visited Charlotte and had quite a bit to say about his visit.....
All too often, the conversation always seem to devolve into the pre-auto regions of America talking down about the south in some weird civic pride chest-thumping contest. Where the conversation needs to go is the following....
Quote:
In my city, I can live in a neighborhood next to a rail stop, and walking distance from NBA, NFL, and major league soccer games without the real estate costs and crime rates of much more celebrated US cities
And the weather is better 10 months out of the year, but we never have THAT conversation huh city vs city LOL
It's all about perception over reality. The perception is that people move to the Sunbelt to escape dense, walkable, urban environments in favor of big houses and more land. In reality, one of the trendiest areas in my particular city (Charlotte) is full of young professionals who choose townhomes and apartments that line a light rail line that extends in two directions from downtown . In the "South End" and "Noda" areas of town, light rail stations are literally at the entrance of apartment buildings. An urban planner recently visited Charlotte and had quite a bit to say about his visit.....
All too often, the conversation always seem to devolve into the pre-auto regions of America talking down about the south in some weird civic pride chest-thumping contest. Where the conversation needs to go is the following....
And the weather is better 10 months out of the year, but we never have THAT conversation huh city vs city LOL
Especially if you consider most Rustbelt cities don’t really operate at all as dense urban cities in present day. Cleveland has a metro line and 2 light rail lines (3 if you count the WfL) which is 2023 have a stunning 8,000 riders on a weekday. Which is like, a busy bus route in a city like Philly.
In addition, Cleveland’s metro, Pittsburghs Subway and busways and St Louis’s metro were not there in their peak years. They had surface running streetcars only. (Although up until ~1930 they effectively has dedicated ROWS due to overall lack of car traffic)
In fact Miami LA or Atlanta are 4th in the “Rust belt” in Transit share after Pittsburgh, Chicago and Buffalo. Ahead of Cleveland, Cincinnati and St Louis.
It's all about perception over reality. The perception is that people move to the Sunbelt to escape dense, walkable, urban environments in favor of big houses and more land. In reality, one of the trendiest areas in my particular city (Charlotte) is full of young professionals who choose townhomes and apartments that line a light rail line that extends in two directions from downtown . In the "South End" and "Noda" areas of town, light rail stations are literally at the entrance of apartment buildings. An urban planner recently visited Charlotte and had quite a bit to say about his visit.....
All too often, the conversation always seem to devolve into the pre-auto regions of America talking down about the south in some weird civic pride chest-thumping contest. Where the conversation needs to go is the following....
And the weather is better 10 months out of the year, but we never have THAT conversation huh city vs city LOL
"Weather is better 10 months out of the year" is, for the majority of the sunbelt, highly subjective.
I"ve heard good things about the Lynx, but the fact that its considered a rising star system of the south/southeast sunbelt says a lot about the region. The cities are way bigger, the transit systems (if there even is one) are way smaller with few exceptions.
San Diego is in the same metro size class as Charlotte. We have 65 miles of the busiest light rail in the country plus two commuter lines and you'll hardly ever hear someone say something positive about it, but we're supposed to give Charlotte a pat on the back for Lynx/CATS?
"Weather is better 10 months out of the year" is, for the majority of the sunbelt, highly subjective.
I"ve heard good things about the Lynx, but the fact that its considered a rising star system of the south/southeast sunbelt says a lot about the region. The cities are way bigger, the transit systems (if there even is one) are way smaller with few exceptions.
San Diego is in the same metro size class as Charlotte. We have 65 miles of the busiest light rail in the country plus two commuter lines and you'll hardly ever hear someone say something positive about it, but we're supposed to give Charlotte a pat on the back for Lynx/CATS?
San Diego (if international metros were actually a thing) is massive by comparison. Same for El Paso and Detroit. And YES Charlotte deserves a pat because of how the system is built and integrated with the city's development. 70 miles of light rail in Charlotte wouldn't mean a thing if all of the stations were park and rides with zero TOD (not saying this is San Diego, but I've seen these type of massive systems that missed the entire point of transit).
10 miles done right is better than 100 miles done wrong if that makes sense....
Which is why the poster said “majority of the population.” They seem to be right too, as more people are leaving traditional urban centers for sunbelt cities that are more suburban. You’re right that there are people who do care about an urban experience but that population seems to be far smaller than those who don’t as we can see from migration numbers.
Yes.
And for the record...I think the term "rust belt" is uncalled for and overly disparaging for that region. There is plenty to admire about formerly industrial cities along the Great Lakes/Northeast/Midwest; past, present, and future.
The hyping of one doesn't have to be at the expense of another. That's pretty childish in all reality.
Which is why the poster said “majority of the population.” They seem to be right too, as more people are leaving traditional urban centers for sunbelt cities that are more suburban. You’re right that there are people who do care about an urban experience but that population seems to be far smaller than those who don’t as we can see from migration numbers.
Personally, I think it's women vs men when it comes to urban vs suburban. This might be subjective on my part; but it seems like the urban lovers are usually men. Women have a tendency to want the "American dream" more. I know for me, I would LOVE to be one of those urban pioneers who move to St Louis and help reclaim that city's former glory. The place is so beautiful and charming. However, I have a wife who sees a bunch of close-together houses as being "pointless". She would rather have a "real house" with "breathing room".
In the family structure, women dominate the decision making. This is why most auto makers build cars that women like. Also, most real estate folks can testify that women usually have the final say in home buying (location, school zone, amenities).
There is such a thing as a female urbanite and the male suburbanite, but the opposite seems to be what I typically see (especially after the age of 35). As much as I would prefer a more charming and traditional urban environment, I'd much rather have a happy wife. At best, a suburb of Miami or LA is what my wife would approve of (which isn't a bad deal to be honest).
The Rust Belt cities between 1870 and 1940 grew quite a bit quicker than the Sunbelt cities from 1970 to 2020.
Detroit grew from 79,000 in 1870 to 1.6 million in 1940.
Chicago grew from 298,000 in 1870 to 3.3 million in 1940.
Cleveland grew from 92,000 to 878,000 in 1940.
I don't know of any major Sunbelt cities that have grown that fast a rate, minus the suburbs.
Just a note, much like the Sunbelt there was a lot of Annexatio
Here is a Timelapse of Cleveland, you can see it ~tripled between 1870 and 1940
We’ll see how that changes in the future. I’ve been to Phoenix many times due to the fact that my wife was born there. My in-laws recently moved to Philly mostly to be closer to us, but they cited the upcoming water crisis as the motivating factor to start looking back East. I imagine that many people will be faced with a similar decision to make in the coming decades. What good is it to live in a sunny area if water is scarce?
I’m also fine with people not agreeing with me. I say this as someone who liked Phoenix better than I thought I would: no matter how much Phoenix grows, it will not be an impressive city unless it densifies. Phoenix’s growth numbers look impressive, until you realize that its city limits are nearly 4 times larger than Philadelphia’s. Visually, it’s hard to tell where Phoenix ends and Glendale begins (I know the border is 44th Avenue).
Maybe I would love Philly more than I think I would but the only time I was there was in January and it was freezing and nasty, made me never want to go back. Obviously it's not growing much.
I love it here in Phoenix, the water situation I think is manageable from all the literature I've read. At some point, they may need to cut water to farming and limit growth in the future but so far, the growth has been relentless in Phoenix for decades, obviously people love it because they keep coming.
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