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About half of Adirondack Park is publicly owned. My bad. That means Adirondack Park is 2.6 million acres of state owned land. New England's combined public land (both federal + state) is about 2.97 million acres. My initial point still stands that New York is in general more "unspoiled" when you add in the several millions of acres of publicly owned land.
The way Maine Laws actually work is most of Northern Maine is effectively public
Even more extreme, the AMC a conservation club for example owns over 130,000 continuous acres.
Most of Northern Maine is owned by timber corporations. I don’t think going to some logged over forest owned by J.D. Irving is exactly what people have in mind when they think of “unspoiled wilderness”.
Most of Northern Maine is owned by timber corporations. I don’t think going to some logged over forest owned by J.D. Irving is exactly what people have in mind when they think of “unspoiled wilderness”.
I mean everything from Campgrounds to beaches to Ski resorts operate on state land in New York It’s really not unsoiled.
And since it’s really only semi continuous split up by small towns it’s really really not the “middle of nowhere” like the North Woods of Maine.
Like I’ve been to Letchworth, Walkins Glen, the Ithaca Gorges, Niagara Falls, Chimney Bluffs, Lake George etc. and let me tell you Public land and unsullied wilderness are very much not synonyms
Some hiking trails at letchworth and the Ithaca gorges are literally sidewalks with concrete steps
Last edited by btownboss4; 11-02-2023 at 08:15 PM..
Most of Northern Maine is owned by timber corporations. I don’t think going to some logged over forest owned by J.D. Irving is exactly what people have in mind when they think of “unspoiled wilderness”.
You obviously haven’t been to the Northern Maine Woods and I don’t think you have a great grasp on how the whole logging arrangement in Maine works. Most of that timber land remains untouched for a very long time. Small chunks are cut at a time while the rest is let to sit and mature. People who want truly remote wilderness seek out the Northern Maine Woods/Allagash Wilderness. It’s truly the most vast, unspoiled wilderness area east of the Rockies (and hardly some “logged over forest”). There’s really no comparison between the ADKs and Northwestern Maine in terms of most remote/unspoiled. I’ve spent time in both. The ADKs are gorgeous, but a lot of people live in the park. You can’t drive too far without reaching a populated area, and you’ll encounter other people on the trails and in the woods. In Northern Maine, you can drive for 100 miles without passing through a town. You can have rivers and lakes entirely to yourself, and spend days in the woods without seeing another soul. It’s a prime destination for outdoorsy folks who really want to escape civilization. Again, the ADKs are amazing, but in terms of being remote and unspoiled there’s really no contest.
To be fair, uniformly classifying New York isn't very honest. I would consider New York east of the Hudson to be more New England. Also, arguably the Adirondacks. I use that as my critieria, and then it's New England easily. Southern NJ is an ugly patch on this list as it is more in the Delmarva flatland type of landscape, which I find to be personally unappealing. Southern NJ doesn't deserve to appear on this list. As you can see I put a lot of value on terrain, as well as the physical barriers that oftentimes determine human geography.
To be fair, uniformly classifying New York isn't very honest. I would consider New York east of the Hudson to be more New England. Also, arguably the Adirondacks. I use that as my critieria, and then it's New England easily. Southern NJ is an ugly patch on this list as it is more in the Delmarva flatland type of landscape, which I find to be personally unappealing. Southern NJ doesn't deserve to appear on this list. As you can see I put a lot of value on terrain, as well as the physical barriers that oftentimes determine human geography.
Yeah, I see that. I don't think of New York as a pure Mid-Atlantic state. It's at the intersection of 3 geographic regions with elements of each: New England, the Mid-Atlantic and the Upper Midwest.
PA/NJ are more traditional Mid-Atlantic with the coast plain, the pediment, Appalachian Ridge and Valley and Plateau. In a physio-graphic sense, PA/NJ has more in common with MD/DE/VA/WV than NYS.
But, NY/PA/NJ is geographically cohesive unit. In my mind that is what makes this a competitive contest. New England has beautiful coastline, scenic mountains, rolling lowland areas, and lots of cute towns. But, NY/PA/NJ pack a punch in terms of variety.
if we're comparing beaches, I do love the Jersey Shore, except for one thing. I'll get to that in a second.
Whereas I'd argue that the New England states have more variation in the types of beaches they have, NJ has more "fun" beaches. What I mean by that is that you can take a train out of NYC to the Shore and go to a beach that has an amazing boardwalk with games, bars and warmish water.
You can get a bit of that in Revere, Hull, Hampton or Old Orchard, but it's not as extensive, and even the summer the water is freezing.
But what kills me about NJ beaches is that we have to pay to get on the sand during the day. I can't for the life me how a state with taxes as high as NJ could charge 9 bucks (or whatever it is now) to be able to touch sand.
Last edited by MrDee12345; 11-02-2023 at 11:43 PM..
You obviously haven’t been to the Northern Maine Woods and I don’t think you have a great grasp on how the whole logging arrangement in Maine works. Most of that timber land remains untouched for a very long time. Small chunks are cut at a time while the rest is let to sit and mature. People who want truly remote wilderness seek out the Northern Maine Woods/Allagash Wilderness. It’s truly the most vast, unspoiled wilderness area east of the Rockies (and hardly some “logged over forest”). There’s really no comparison between the ADKs and Northwestern Maine in terms of most remote/unspoiled. I’ve spent time in both. The ADKs are gorgeous, but a lot of people live in the park. You can’t drive too far without reaching a populated area, and you’ll encounter other people on the trails and in the woods. In Northern Maine, you can drive for 100 miles without passing through a town. You can have rivers and lakes entirely to yourself, and spend days in the woods without seeing another soul. It’s a prime destination for outdoorsy folks who really want to escape civilization. Again, the ADKs are amazing, but in terms of being remote and unspoiled there’s really no contest.
I think we’re just using different terms here. You’re using unspoiled to mean remote and with very little human civilization, which I agree with.
If we’re talking unspoiled as in completely preserved, then it doesn’t really fit that. You’re right that I’ve never been to the North Woods, but based on some limited research tonight, I can see that an overwhelming majority of it has been repeatedly logged over in the last few centuries. Less than 0.1% of Maine’s forests can be classified as old growth.
New York state has had similar problems in that it’s overlogged, but it has more preserved and restored land over the last couple centuries which is why it can better claim to be unspoiled.
Yeah, I see that. I don't think of New York as a pure Mid-Atlantic state. It's at the intersection of 3 geographic regions with elements of each: New England, the Mid-Atlantic and the Upper Midwest.
PA/NJ are more traditional Mid-Atlantic with the coast plain, the pediment, Appalachian Ridge and Valley and Plateau. In a physio-graphic sense, PA/NJ has more in common with MD/DE/VA/WV than NYS.
But, NY/PA/NJ is geographically cohesive unit. In my mind that is what makes this a competitive contest. New England has beautiful coastline, scenic mountains, rolling lowland areas, and lots of cute towns. But, NY/PA/NJ pack a punch in terms of variety.
I kind of agree like north of the Thruway isn’t the mid Atlantic but it’s also more distinctly not New England. Which is 6 states period. And you can’t have a region whose biggest city is Saratoga Springs so, it’s in the Mid Atlantic. Even the Catskills, unlike even Northern PA are very much not Appalachia.
Vermont to Upstate is actually a very big cultural transition.
Whereas I'd argue that the New England states have more variation in the types of beaches they have, NJ has more "fun" beaches. What I mean by that is that you can take a train out of NYC to the Shore and go to a beach that has an amazing boardwalk with games, bars and warmish water.
Very accurate. Where New England excels in quaintness in terms of beach towns, NJ (and the Mid-Atlantic generally) excel in fun and vibrancy. Both have unique and great vibes--just depends on the kind of "escape" you want.
One other point I wanted to make about quaintness, as well, as there have been a couple of posts referencing the appearance of small towns in both regions: small town quaintness is VERY underrated in NY, PA, and NJ. Yes, you'll find more post-industrial scarring in Central PA or Upstate NY. But that being said, I'd absolutely put loads of towns in these three states up against the best quaint towns New England offers (at least as far as non-coastal towns are concerned).
New England certainly isn't uniformly well-off either. Economically depressed neighborhoods and towns/cities contending with disinvestment aren't exactly a foreign phenomenon in the 6-state region.
Last edited by Duderino; 11-03-2023 at 07:11 AM..
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