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View Poll Results: What city is less southern?
Atlanta 41 18.47%
Dallas 96 43.24%
Houston 85 38.29%
Voters: 222. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-01-2009, 02:08 PM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
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Dallas is the least southern, hands down. If you look historically at the industries that Houston and Dallas had during the slavery era and post slavery era, then Dallas has more ties to Midwestern industries. While Houston, was more tied to the agricultural industries that slaves (cotton, rice, sugar cane, etc.). I'm a native Texan of 23 years and Dallas never felt Southern to me. Houston/Galveston has some of that New Orleans/ South Louisiana southern culture to it (there are different types of southern culture).

Present day, Houston has lost some of its southern culture due to it becoming an international city but I would say with certainty that Houston has a stereotypical southern feel to it, while Dallas has stereotypical Texas feel to it.
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:28 PM
 
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polo you missed my point which was that all those people trying to build Texas...were born and raised in the South. I myself am Texan before Southern anyday butttt that in itself is a Southern trait right!

and dv1033 what were Dallas' midwestern ties other than as a hub for shipping things like hmm...cotton to the north?
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eastdallasson View Post
polo you missed my point which was that all those people trying to build Texas...were born and raised in the South. I myself am Texan before Southern anyday butttt that in itself is a Southern trait right!

and dv1033 what were Dallas' midwestern ties other than as a hub for shipping things like hmm...cotton to the north?
Oh. Yes that is true. But at the same time, which Texas? Because Tejanos, had HUGE part in building Texas also. And there are certain aspects of Texas that have and will always be part of Mexican culture and will never be associated with that of southern culture. I understand what you mean, in the sense that ALOT of the big cities, and small towns througout the Texas urban triangle were built, named, and settled by Southern born and bred Anglos, but at the same time there is a WHOLE nother Texas that takes the form of Spanish and Mexican tradition, such as Spanish Missions, Rivers with Spanish names, Cities with Spanish names, ect, ect, that have ALMOST nothing to do with the traditional south. Im not saying Texas isn't part of the south, but at the same time there is a WHOLE side of Texas that wouldn't in the least bit FEEL southern. But at the same time I agree with you, ALOT of Texas was settled by southerners, there were MANY, MANY, MANY, if not all southerners that fought in the Texas Independence War. Davy Crockett from Tennessee was one of them.
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:02 PM
 
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i agree completely! which is part of what makes the state so interesting and great, the range of influence. i feel like mostly west of dallas, yes that means even making a distinction with fort worth, the culture is definitively texan, whereas in the biggest cities and the towns in between them and east it can be much harder to distinguish them from other, more typically southern places.
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eastdallasson View Post
polo you missed my point which was that all those people trying to build Texas...were born and raised in the South. I myself am Texan before Southern anyday butttt that in itself is a Southern trait right!

and dv1033 what were Dallas' midwestern ties other than as a hub for shipping things like hmm...cotton to the north?
Great post, EastDallas!

Most of the traits which are considered uniquely "Texan" are, in essence, of Southern origin and flavor. Even the icon of Texas, the "cowboy" was, unlike in the true West, not of "Mexican/Hispanic vaquero" decent, but from the Old South cattle droving tradition. It only stands to reason. They were generally ex-Confederate soldiers who moved west to get a new start. Hell, the "cattle boom" era itself in Texas is directly traceable to the fall of Vicksburg in the "Civil War."

Texas -- or at least the vast majority of the state -- is emphatically NOT the West...at least in the modern day sense of sharing a common history and heritage with New Mexico/Arizona, or the Rocky Mountain States. An era is shared, but not a commonality of basic culture.

As Raymond Gastil in his book "Cultural Regions of the United States" put it:

Unlike the Interior Southwest, neither aboriginal Indian nor Spanish-American culture played a central role in the definition of the area. The people of Texas are mostly from the Lower, Upper, and Mountain South and these Southerners easily outnumbered the Spanish speaking and Indian people even before the state joined the Union. Therefore, when we refer to a large Spanish-speaking population in Texas, we are primarily speaking of a relatively recent immigrant population, quite different from the core areas of the Interior Southwest."

Texas was not -- in the least -- a "melting pot" in the same class as a California. Its basic character was shaped by anglo and black settlers from the southeastern states moving west. Even the heavily German settled areas of central Texas eventually assimilated into the dominant WASP/Scots-Irish which formed the majority of the basic Texas stock.

Texas is Texas, to be sure. But it is also essentially a Southern state.
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:34 PM
 
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I think the Houston area probably at one time was as close to classically southern as anything in Louisiana or Mississippi. I say this because Galveston was at one point one of the larger slave ports in the South, and directly outside of the city of Houston proper in small communities like Cleveland, Magnolia, parts of Montgomery county, a strong deep south vibe can be found.
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:46 PM
 
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OK. Texas history as a STATE is DEFINATELY inherently SOUTHERN. BUT, BEFORE 1836 Texas was part of MEXICO, while the REST of the south was still well southern. I would say AFTER 1836 is when the SOUTHERNESS of Texas REALLY jumped off and got to popping, because ALOT of what WE see in the more urban parts of Texas, were setlled by SOUTHERNERS. BUT, if we were to include the WHOLE history of Texas, that means BEFORE the Texas Independence and BEFORE the Civil War, then MOST of Texas(and NOT all), then it has HEAVY western influence.

WIKIPEDIA:
Spanish Texas

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Spanish Texas was one of the interior provinces of New Spain from 1690 until 1821. Although Spain nominally claimed ownership of the territory, which comprised part of modern-day Texas, including the land north of the Medina and Nueces Rivers, the Spanish did not attempt to colonize the area until after discovering evidence of the failed French colony of Fort Saint Louis in 1689. In 1690, Alonso De León escorted several Catholic missionaries to East Texas, where they established the first mission in Texas. When native tribes resisted the Spanish presence, the missionaries returned to Mexico, abandoning Texas for the next two decades.
The Spanish returned to East Texas in 1716, establishing several missions and a presidio to maintain a buffer between Spanish Territory and the French territory of Louisiana. Two years later, the first civilian settlement in Texas, San Antonio, was established as a way station between the missions and the nearest existing Spanish settlement. The new town quickly became a target for raids by the Lipan Apache. The raids continued periodically for almost three decades, until in 1749 the Spanish and the Apache made peace. The peace treaty angered the enemies of the Apache and resulted in raids on Spanish settlements by the Comanche, Tonkawa, and Hasinai tribes. Fear of Indian attacks and remoteness from the rest of the viceroyalty discouraged settlers from moving to Texas, and it remained one of the least populated provinces of New Spain. The threat of Indian attacks did not decrease until 1785, when Spain reached a peace agreement with the Comanche, who later assisted in defeating the Lipan Apache and Karankawa tribes which had continued to cause difficulties for Spanish settlers. An increase in the number of missions in the province allowed for a peaceful conversion of other tribes, and by the end of the eighteenth century, only a small number of the hunting and gathering tribes in the area had not been Christianized.
France formally relinquished its claim to Texas in 1762, when French Louisiana was ceded to Spain. Louisiana's addition meant that Texas was no longer essential as a buffer province, and the easternmost settlements in Texas were disbanded, with the population relocated to San Antonio. In 1799, however, Spain gave Louisiana back to France, and shortly thereafter Napoleon sold the territory to the United States. U.S. President Thomas Jefferson insisted that the purchase included all land to the east of the Rocky Mountains and to the north of the Rio Grande. The dispute was not resolved until 1819, when Spain traded Florida to the United States in return for recognition of the Sabine River as Texas's eastern boundary.
During the Mexican War of Independence from 1810–1821, Texas experienced much turmoil. Governor Manuel María de Salcedo was overthrown by rebels in 1810, but persuaded his jailer to release him and assist him in organizing a countercoup. Three years later, the Republican Army of the North, comprised primarily of Indians and Americans, again overthrew the Texas government and executed Salcedo. The Spanish response was brutal, and by 1820 fewer than 2000 Hispanic citizens remained in Texas. Spain was forced to relinquish its control of New Spain in 1821, and Texas becoming a province of the newly formed nation of Mexico, leading to the period in Texas history known as Mexican Texas.
The Spanish left a deep mark on Texas. Their European livestock caused mesquite to spread inland while farmers tilled and irrigated the land, changing the landscape forever. Spanish language provided the names for many of the rivers, towns, and counties that currently exist, and Spanish architectural concepts still flourish. Although Texas eventually adopted much of the Anglo-American legal system, many Spanish legal practices were retained, including the concept of a homestead exemption and community property.

Mexican Texas

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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c1/Map_of_Coahuila_and_Texas_in_1833.jpg/180px-Map_of_Coahuila_and_Texas_in_1833.jpg (broken link)
The province of Coahuila and Texas in 1833, showing the major land grants


Mexican Texas is the given name by Texas history scholars to the period between 1821 and 1836, when Texas was governed by Mexico. The period began with Mexico's victory over Spain in its war of independence in 1821. For the first several years of its existence, Mexican Texas operated very similarly to Spanish Texas. The 1824 Constitution of Mexico joined Texas with Coahuila to form the state of Coahuila y Tejas. The same year, Mexico enacted the General Colonization Law, which enabled all heads of household, regardless of race or immigrant status, to claim land in Mexico. The first empresarial grant had been made under Spanish control to Stephen F. Austin, whose settlers, known as the Old Three Hundred, settled along the Brazos River in 1822. The grant was later ratified by the Mexican government. Twenty-three other empresarios brought settlers to the state, the majority from the United States of America.
Many of the Anglo-American settlers owned slaves. Texas was granted a one-year exemption from Mexico's 1829 edict outlawing slavery but Mexican president Anastasio Bustamante ordered that all slaves be freed in 1830. To circumvent the law, many Anglo colonists converted their slaves into indentured servants for life. By 1836 there were 5,000 slaves in Texas.
Also in 1830, Bustamante outlawed the immigration of United States citizens to Texas. Several new presidios were established in the region to monitor immigration and customs practices. Angry colonists held a convention in 1832 to demand that U.S. citizens be allowed to immigrate. The following year, their Convention of 1833 proposed that Texas become a separate Mexican state. Although Mexico implemented several measures to appease the colonists, Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna's measures to transform Mexico from a federalist to a centralist state provided an excuse for the Texan colonists to revolt.
The first violent incident occurred on June 26, 1832 at the battle of Velasco. On March 2, 1836, Texans signed the Texas Declaration of Independence. The Texas Revolution ended on April 21, 1836 when Santa Anna was taken prisoner following the battle of San Jacinto. Although Texas then governed itself as the Republic of Texas, Mexico refused to recognize its independence.
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:04 PM
 
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And the rest is TEXAS history. Anyways Atlanta is the most southern, then Houston, then Dallas.
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by polo89 View Post
OK. Texas history as a STATE is DEFINATELY inherently SOUTHERN. BUT, BEFORE 1836 Texas was part of MEXICO, while the REST of the south was still well southern. I would say AFTER 1836
I don't think we are fundamentally in disagreement, Polo...maybe only by degrees...and I acknowledge your basic point. But take it back a bit further, and it can be said that Louisiana and Arkansas were of the Louisiana Purchase and therefore part of France.

Sure, I know we can keep going back and regress to the point everyone decends from Adam and Eve (LOL) but point to be made is that the dominant culture has to start somewhere. And in Texas, it was unquestionably Southern (and I hasten to add that I realize you are not arguing different).

There were about three "main ports of entry" into the United States. Somewhere around New York, Jamestown, Virginia, and Charleston, South Carolina.

Those in the first pretty much spread west into the Midwest and all and into the West. In Virginia, it went into the lower Midwest and Upper South and into northern Texas. In Charleston, it spread across the Deep South into EastTexas. The Upper and Lower South sorta merged in west Texas.

The Southern elements in Texas settlement were definitely the dominating influence. This is reflected in every way from the powerfully historic (i.e. becoming an original Confederate state) to the seemingly trivial (i.e. the custom of black-eyed peas on New Years Day).

But yeah, I see what you are saying and agree in many ways. Where Texas became regarded a bit "different" from the rest of the South was after the "Civil War." We didn't suffer the physical damage that did the states in the southeast...so it was fairly easy for Texans to put the War behind them in a way not possible for, say, Georgia or South Carolina or Alabama.

This had the effect of making Texas wellll, more "TEXAS". Whereas the immediate memories of the devasation made some of the states in what we now call the Deep South (a term not even coined until the early/mid part of the 20th Century) more "Southern".
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:22 PM
 
14,256 posts, read 26,801,759 times
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Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
I don't think we are fundamentally in disagreement, Polo...maybe only by degrees...and I acknowledge your basic point. But take it back a bit further, and it can be said that Louisiana and Arkansas were of the Louisiana Purchase and therefore part of France.

Sure, I know we can keep going back and regress to the point everyone decends from Adam and Eve (LOL) but point to be made is that the dominant culture has to start somewhere. And in Texas, it was unquestionably Southern (and I hasten to add that I realize you are not arguing different).

There were about three "main ports of entry" into the United States. Somewhere around New York, Jamestown, Virginia, and Charleston, South Carolina.

Those in the first pretty much spread west into the Midwest and all and into the West. In Virginia, it went into the lower Midwest and Upper South and into northern Texas. In Charleston, it spread across the Deep South into EastTexas. The Upper and Lower South sorta merged in west Texas.

The Southern elements in Texas settlement were definitely the dominating influence. This is reflected in every way from the powerfully historic (i.e. becoming an original Confederate state) to the seemingly trivial (i.e. the custom of black-eyed peas on New Years Day).

But yeah, I see what you are saying and agree in many ways. Where Texas became regarded a bit "different" from the rest of the South was after the "Civil War." We didn't suffer the physical damage that did the states in the southeast...so it was fairly easy for Texans to put the War behind them in a way not possible for, say, Georgia or South Carolina or Alabama.

This had the effect of making Texas wellll, more "TEXAS". Whereas the immediate memories of the devasation made some of the states in what we now call the Deep South (a term not even coined until the early/mid part of the 20th Century) more "Southern".
Agreed. ALOT of the CURRENT culture of Texas IS descended from early southern settlers. ALL anglos in Texas are descendents of people from MISS, LOUISIANA all the way to Georgia. You can see the southern culture ALONG SIDE the Mexican, Western culture in Texas. Form ranch hands in West Texas who's dialect have southern roots, but who's cuisine consist of Chile Con Carne. You can definately see the influence of BOTH sides, then just a southern, or a western side.
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